4 ms·

The law would actually push people towards freer browser. Browsers made by multinationals like Google, Apple and MS would have to obey, but other browsers could

The law would actually push people towards freer browser. Browsers made by multinationals like Google, Apple and MS would have to obey, but other browsers could ignore it as long as they don’t have a presence in France. So the law works against the push to DRM, not for it. Oh glorious unintended consequences.

estebarb 3y ago
No, it won't. Sadly most people doesn't have that tech expertise. And how you would run an open source browser in a walled garden like iOS or similar?
- pokepim 3y ago
  [dead]
- hyperman1 3y ago
  You're now betting against the teenage sex drive of the whole planet We've seen mod chips in game consoles go from obscure to everyone-knows-someone-to-install-them, and thats with the brakes of cheater branding. Piracy is unstoppable. The pirate bay just won't die, and that's only 1 location and lost its importance long ago. People will fight to access copyrighted works. Someone will package an access path in an easily accessible way, and hordes of kids will jump on it. Netflix as easily accessible platform was the only working piracy solution with some chance, and corporate greed broke it.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    > You're now betting against the teenage sex drive of the whole planet Teenagers want porn. The “infringing sites” discussed in the linked article isn’t about porn. No one thinks that the French government is going to require that browsers block Pornhub, Reddit’s gone-wild subs, or Xvideos. Your view of hordes of kids keen on pirating is rather dated. Sure, some people still pirate. But due to the rise in streaming and media-as-a-commodity, piracy is no longer even the same marginal cultural force that it was a decade ago.
    - hgsgm 3y ago
      Why would no one think that? Here in US we have various legislative efforts to make porn harder to reach.
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      There are currently multiple states in the US that require invasive age verification for porn or the site needs to be blocked. Why is it such a leap that they won't just require the sites to be blocked completely to "protect the children"?
    - concinds 3y ago
      > No one thinks that the French government is going to require that browsers block Pornhub, Reddit’s gone-wild subs, or Xvideos Very wrong! France is currently deciding whether to ban five porn sites, including Pornhub, Xvideos, and XHamster.[0] The new law mentioned in TFA has already passed one chamber of parliament unanimously, and will be passed later this year.[1] It won't just require phishing sites to be blocked by browsers. It'll also require porn sites to authenticate users through government websites (think OpenID but with the tax-filing website or national health insurance website, to check if age > 18), and block porn sites that don't comply (without needing a judge's permission). It doesn't stop there. The new law requires sites that allow "foreign propaganda" (Russia Today, Sputnik) to be blocked. And though it's not directly relevant here, the law also criminalizes "online contempt" and hate speech, which includes "threats and intimidation against elected officials", and gives the government the right to legally require platforms to ban such people, and to legally punish these platforms if the person finds a way to circumvent the ban.[2][3] Note that the French government can already block pirate sites (and does, including Sci-Hub and Libgen) without a judge's permission.[4] This isn't done in the browser itself, but all the above will be, and there's no doubt that this will be too eventually. [0]: https://www.20minutes.fr/high-tech/by-the-web/4045390-20230713-blocage-sites-pornographiques-decision-retardee-associations-protection-enfance-lassees https://www.20minutes.fr/high-tech/by-the-web/4045390-202307... [1]: https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2023/07/06/le-senat-vote-a-l-unanimite-un-projet-de-loi-pour-securiser-et-reguler-l-espace-numerique_6180758_4408996.html https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2023/07/06/le-senat-vo... [2]: https://www.vie-publique.fr/loi/289345-securiser-et-reguler-lespace-nunerique-projet-de-loi-sren https://www.vie-publique.fr/loi/289345-securiser-et-reguler-... [3]: https://www.20minutes.fr/high-tech/by-the-web/4044754-20230707-reseaux-sociaux-projet-loi-securite-internet-vote-unanimite-senat https://www.20minutes.fr/high-tech/by-the-web/4044754-202307... [4]: https://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-tech/piratage-sur-internet-166-sites-bloques-depuis-fin-2022-selon-l-arcom-20230521 https://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-tech/piratage-sur-inter...
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    >We've seen mod chips in game consoles go from obscure to everyone-knows-someone-to-install-them To them being no longer relevant as security of consoles increased. >Piracy is unstoppable L1 DRM is very expensive to break. As the industry's security gets better and better that price will continue to increase. People who can break L1 DRM will not find it worth it to dump a lot of content or share it with a lot of people because they don't want their key to be blacklisted.
- zarzavat 3y ago
  Don’t have the tech expertise to install Firefox? How did they install Chrome in the first place then? People are not stupid they are just lazy, Chrome works fine so they use that. The moment Chrome stops being “fine” they will switch.
  - themaninthedark 3y ago
    Firefox is adding functionality to disable extensions on websites. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36602193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36602193 What makes you think that they won't add a global website blocker too? I say this as someone who uses Firefox. They changed when it stopped being just software developers and became a brand.
  - xp84 3y ago
    Think of how WEI plays into this though. They’ll have to use Chrome or equivalent, eventually, to access any commercial site (same as how no banking apps will launch on a jailbroken iPhone). So, they’ll be forced to use a “pirate” browser but only to access unapproved content. Today iOS already doesn’t allow any other browsers except as skins over their Safari engine. Even if it’s possible within those rules though, what makes you think they would allow a future Firefox that “disables important integrity functionality” that Safari includes.
hgsgm 3y ago
If the government mandates MiTM DRM , the next logical step is making non-DRM illegal.
coldtea 3y ago
>but other browsers could ignore it as long as they don’t have a presence in France As long as the idea it "out there", and a country like France does a test drive, it wont be just in France.
xp84 3y ago
Of course, WEI will “fix” that. Every commercial website, Google, Gmail, etc. will force you to use Chrome, Edge, or Safari, which will probably use WEI. Those will also be the browsers that implement the blocklists. Sure, you could also keep a free browser to browse the parts of the web that allow it, but those parts of the web will be starved of ad dollars and viewership, as sponsoring a “dark web” site (a term the proponents of WEI and governments would probably like to popularize for any non-WEI-enforcing site) may become inherently disreputable, and it may develop a reputation like KaZaA or LimeWire, as a hotbed of illegal activity and dangerous malware, scaring average people from “opening themselves up to” those risks by installing Firefox or whatever. Think of how few Apple users jailbreak, or turn off SIP.

estebarb 3y ago

No, it won't. Sadly most people doesn't have that tech expertise. And how you would run an open source browser in a walled garden like iOS or similar?

pokepim 3y ago
[dead]
hyperman1 3y ago
You're now betting against the teenage sex drive of the whole planet We've seen mod chips in game consoles go from obscure to everyone-knows-someone-to-install-them, and thats with the brakes of cheater branding. Piracy is unstoppable. The pirate bay just won't die, and that's only 1 location and lost its importance long ago. People will fight to access copyrighted works. Someone will package an access path in an easily accessible way, and hordes of kids will jump on it. Netflix as easily accessible platform was the only working piracy solution with some chance, and corporate greed broke it.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  > You're now betting against the teenage sex drive of the whole planet Teenagers want porn. The “infringing sites” discussed in the linked article isn’t about porn. No one thinks that the French government is going to require that browsers block Pornhub, Reddit’s gone-wild subs, or Xvideos. Your view of hordes of kids keen on pirating is rather dated. Sure, some people still pirate. But due to the rise in streaming and media-as-a-commodity, piracy is no longer even the same marginal cultural force that it was a decade ago.
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    Why would no one think that? Here in US we have various legislative efforts to make porn harder to reach.
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    There are currently multiple states in the US that require invasive age verification for porn or the site needs to be blocked. Why is it such a leap that they won't just require the sites to be blocked completely to "protect the children"?
  - concinds 3y ago
    > No one thinks that the French government is going to require that browsers block Pornhub, Reddit’s gone-wild subs, or Xvideos Very wrong! France is currently deciding whether to ban five porn sites, including Pornhub, Xvideos, and XHamster.[0] The new law mentioned in TFA has already passed one chamber of parliament unanimously, and will be passed later this year.[1] It won't just require phishing sites to be blocked by browsers. It'll also require porn sites to authenticate users through government websites (think OpenID but with the tax-filing website or national health insurance website, to check if age > 18), and block porn sites that don't comply (without needing a judge's permission). It doesn't stop there. The new law requires sites that allow "foreign propaganda" (Russia Today, Sputnik) to be blocked. And though it's not directly relevant here, the law also criminalizes "online contempt" and hate speech, which includes "threats and intimidation against elected officials", and gives the government the right to legally require platforms to ban such people, and to legally punish these platforms if the person finds a way to circumvent the ban.[2][3] Note that the French government can already block pirate sites (and does, including Sci-Hub and Libgen) without a judge's permission.[4] This isn't done in the browser itself, but all the above will be, and there's no doubt that this will be too eventually. [0]: https://www.20minutes.fr/high-tech/by-the-web/4045390-20230713-blocage-sites-pornographiques-decision-retardee-associations-protection-enfance-lassees https://www.20minutes.fr/high-tech/by-the-web/4045390-202307... [1]: https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2023/07/06/le-senat-vote-a-l-unanimite-un-projet-de-loi-pour-securiser-et-reguler-l-espace-numerique_6180758_4408996.html https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2023/07/06/le-senat-vo... [2]: https://www.vie-publique.fr/loi/289345-securiser-et-reguler-lespace-nunerique-projet-de-loi-sren https://www.vie-publique.fr/loi/289345-securiser-et-reguler-... [3]: https://www.20minutes.fr/high-tech/by-the-web/4044754-20230707-reseaux-sociaux-projet-loi-securite-internet-vote-unanimite-senat https://www.20minutes.fr/high-tech/by-the-web/4044754-202307... [4]: https://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-tech/piratage-sur-internet-166-sites-bloques-depuis-fin-2022-selon-l-arcom-20230521 https://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-tech/piratage-sur-inter...
- charcircuit 3y ago
  >We've seen mod chips in game consoles go from obscure to everyone-knows-someone-to-install-them To them being no longer relevant as security of consoles increased. >Piracy is unstoppable L1 DRM is very expensive to break. As the industry's security gets better and better that price will continue to increase. People who can break L1 DRM will not find it worth it to dump a lot of content or share it with a lot of people because they don't want their key to be blacklisted.
zarzavat 3y ago
Don’t have the tech expertise to install Firefox? How did they install Chrome in the first place then? People are not stupid they are just lazy, Chrome works fine so they use that. The moment Chrome stops being “fine” they will switch.
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  Firefox is adding functionality to disable extensions on websites. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36602193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36602193 What makes you think that they won't add a global website blocker too? I say this as someone who uses Firefox. They changed when it stopped being just software developers and became a brand.
- xp84 3y ago
  Think of how WEI plays into this though. They’ll have to use Chrome or equivalent, eventually, to access any commercial site (same as how no banking apps will launch on a jailbroken iPhone). So, they’ll be forced to use a “pirate” browser but only to access unapproved content. Today iOS already doesn’t allow any other browsers except as skins over their Safari engine. Even if it’s possible within those rules though, what makes you think they would allow a future Firefox that “disables important integrity functionality” that Safari includes.

hgsgm 3y ago

If the government mandates MiTM DRM , the next logical step is making non-DRM illegal.

coldtea 3y ago

>but other browsers could ignore it as long as they don’t have a presence in France As long as the idea it "out there", and a country like France does a test drive, it wont be just in France.

xp84 3y ago

Of course, WEI will “fix” that. Every commercial website, Google, Gmail, etc. will force you to use Chrome, Edge, or Safari, which will probably use WEI. Those will also be the browsers that implement the blocklists. Sure, you could also keep a free browser to browse the parts of the web that allow it, but those parts of the web will be starved of ad dollars and viewership, as sponsoring a “dark web” site (a term the proponents of WEI and governments would probably like to popularize for any non-WEI-enforcing site) may become inherently disreputable, and it may develop a reputation like KaZaA or LimeWire, as a hotbed of illegal activity and dangerous malware, scaring average people from “opening themselves up to” those risks by installing Firefox or whatever. Think of how few Apple users jailbreak, or turn off SIP.