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> that's trying to establish an initial niche Which suggests to me that while kagi might be good now, if it gets popular it may undergo enshittification in an

> that's trying to establish an initial niche Which suggests to me that while kagi might be good now, if it gets popular it may undergo enshittification in an effort to monetise its popularity.

freediverx 3y ago
That’s exactly my fear.
pokeymcsnatch 3y ago
It's a paid service and all their competitors are 'free'. Enshittification doesn't fit their business model, they'd go under in a heartbeat.
- SQueeeeeL 3y ago
  See also, Whatsapp
- rchaud 3y ago
  Cable TV didn't use to have ads, until somebody figured out you could charge the customer and have other streams of revenue as well. For Kagi, it's a matter of when, not if. Capitalism guarantees it.
  - yakubin 3y ago
    An even sadder example of it: Windows.
    - freediverx 3y ago
      I don’t think the term enshittification applies when a product is fully enshittified from its inception.
  - esafak 3y ago
    No, it does not. They are free to create adjacent products to boost revenue as long as they want without debasing existing ones.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      And the oxygen in the room you're in is free to concentrate in a single corner of it, making air in the rest of the room unbreathable. Both are technically possible, but so extremely unlikely, that you can rely on them not happening.
      - yard2010 3y ago
        My ML prof in university used this as an example for something that could happen but is highly unlikely. Each particle of oxygen can be in either half of the room so it's like 1/2 to the power of the number of particles (avogardo?) chance that all the particles are in one half suffocating the ppl in the other half. He was such a great guy.
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      This is a good point. Did Kagi ever consider having a freemium tier that uses adverts to pay for the (search) content? I don't think it is a terrible idea if it helps Kagi to improve their paid search.
  - version_five 3y ago
    As long as they don't take outside investment that's not a certainly. People complain about the prices but it's charging the real cost that let's them be able to offer something good without mortgaging the future. I concede that if they got big enough, someone would come with enough money that they couldn't refuse, and buy them to try and "unlock vale" by racing to the bottom.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    How nice then that you can use Kagi as it is right now, today. Then if your prediction comes true in the future you can stop using Kagi.
  - Karunamon 3y ago
    Capitalism is the only reason they exist in the first place. Don't confuse an entire economic system with the unique problems caused by public ownership or investing (i.e. growth at all costs). Plenty of smaller organizations would be quite happy to operate with modest profits for their owners and never scale beyond that point.
    - freediverx 3y ago
      You’re conflating capitalism with commerce.
    - rchaud 3y ago
      > Capitalism is the only reason they exist in the first place. Precisely, which is why enshittification is a when, not an if. A paid search engine will never pick up enough users to survive at $10/mo. It will either be acquired or start throwing in "non-intrusive" ads to balance the books.
      - freediver 3y ago
        > start throwing in "non-intrusive" ads to balance the books Here is a personal guarantee that this will never happen with Kagi while I am in charge. There are too many ad-supported search engines and browsers out there. I would not waste 10 years of my life to make yet another one. If Kagi can not sustain iteself with memberships, it will be the end of it. The initial reason I started Kagi was to provide my kids with an opportunity to grow up in an ad-free experience of the web. In this interview [1] I talk more about my motivation. [1] https://dkb.io/post/DEPR_kagi-interview https://dkb.io/post/DEPR_kagi-interview
        barrysteve 3y ago
        You have broken your privacy policy to share user block lists as advertising on HackerNews. Call us back in 6 months when you arbitrarily change something else and give us another motivating pep talk about your commitments. roll eyes.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  "Enshittification": God, I love this term. It so perfectly captures what happens to a product when revenues stall and product managers think of anything to drive new revs. See: Microsoft Windows or Microsoft Office. I was just about to finish this post and ask if anyone knows the history. I Googled that and was surprised by the answer from Wikionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enshittification https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enshittification ...[C]oined by Canadian-British blogger, journalist, and science fiction author Cory Doctorow in 2022. God damn, "Dr." Doctorow again!
ocdtrekkie 3y ago
A key point is that Kagi raised its prices already so it was sustainable. The reason most services get worse is because they are downright unprofitable and it is impossible to get them there without either making them drastically worse, or raising prices, which free sites can't do. Kagi has already put itself on a path where it doesn't have to make itself worse to cover its expenses, because it is already covering them.
- freediverx 3y ago
  No, the main reason why companies turn to shit is because they’re publicly traded and accept VC money so sooner or later, they’re beholden to shareholders demanding infinite growth and profits.
carlosjobim 3y ago
This is honestly probably the most tiresome argument that constantly pops up in every HN thread. Imagine if one of your friends come back from a holiday trip and tells you how fantastic the place they visited was. Is your response "Well, maybe that place ain't going to be so nice in a few years!"?

> that's trying to establish an initial niche Which suggests to me that while kagi might be good now, if it gets popular it may undergo enshittification in an effort to monetise its popularity.

freediverx 3y ago

That’s exactly my fear.

pokeymcsnatch 3y ago

It's a paid service and all their competitors are 'free'. Enshittification doesn't fit their business model, they'd go under in a heartbeat.

SQueeeeeL 3y ago
See also, Whatsapp
rchaud 3y ago
Cable TV didn't use to have ads, until somebody figured out you could charge the customer and have other streams of revenue as well. For Kagi, it's a matter of when, not if. Capitalism guarantees it.
- yakubin 3y ago
  An even sadder example of it: Windows.
  - freediverx 3y ago
    I don’t think the term enshittification applies when a product is fully enshittified from its inception.
- esafak 3y ago
  No, it does not. They are free to create adjacent products to boost revenue as long as they want without debasing existing ones.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    And the oxygen in the room you're in is free to concentrate in a single corner of it, making air in the rest of the room unbreathable. Both are technically possible, but so extremely unlikely, that you can rely on them not happening.
    - yard2010 3y ago
      My ML prof in university used this as an example for something that could happen but is highly unlikely. Each particle of oxygen can be in either half of the room so it's like 1/2 to the power of the number of particles (avogardo?) chance that all the particles are in one half suffocating the ppl in the other half. He was such a great guy.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    This is a good point. Did Kagi ever consider having a freemium tier that uses adverts to pay for the (search) content? I don't think it is a terrible idea if it helps Kagi to improve their paid search.
- version_five 3y ago
  As long as they don't take outside investment that's not a certainly. People complain about the prices but it's charging the real cost that let's them be able to offer something good without mortgaging the future. I concede that if they got big enough, someone would come with enough money that they couldn't refuse, and buy them to try and "unlock vale" by racing to the bottom.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  How nice then that you can use Kagi as it is right now, today. Then if your prediction comes true in the future you can stop using Kagi.
- Karunamon 3y ago
  Capitalism is the only reason they exist in the first place. Don't confuse an entire economic system with the unique problems caused by public ownership or investing (i.e. growth at all costs). Plenty of smaller organizations would be quite happy to operate with modest profits for their owners and never scale beyond that point.
  - freediverx 3y ago
    You’re conflating capitalism with commerce.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    > Capitalism is the only reason they exist in the first place. Precisely, which is why enshittification is a when, not an if. A paid search engine will never pick up enough users to survive at $10/mo. It will either be acquired or start throwing in "non-intrusive" ads to balance the books.
    - freediver 3y ago
      > start throwing in "non-intrusive" ads to balance the books Here is a personal guarantee that this will never happen with Kagi while I am in charge. There are too many ad-supported search engines and browsers out there. I would not waste 10 years of my life to make yet another one. If Kagi can not sustain iteself with memberships, it will be the end of it. The initial reason I started Kagi was to provide my kids with an opportunity to grow up in an ad-free experience of the web. In this interview [1] I talk more about my motivation. [1] https://dkb.io/post/DEPR_kagi-interview https://dkb.io/post/DEPR_kagi-interview
      - barrysteve 3y ago
        You have broken your privacy policy to share user block lists as advertising on HackerNews. Call us back in 6 months when you arbitrarily change something else and give us another motivating pep talk about your commitments. roll eyes.
throwaway2037 3y ago
"Enshittification": God, I love this term. It so perfectly captures what happens to a product when revenues stall and product managers think of anything to drive new revs. See: Microsoft Windows or Microsoft Office. I was just about to finish this post and ask if anyone knows the history. I Googled that and was surprised by the answer from Wikionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enshittification https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enshittification ...[C]oined by Canadian-British blogger, journalist, and science fiction author Cory Doctorow in 2022. God damn, "Dr." Doctorow again!

ocdtrekkie 3y ago

A key point is that Kagi raised its prices already so it was sustainable. The reason most services get worse is because they are downright unprofitable and it is impossible to get them there without either making them drastically worse, or raising prices, which free sites can't do. Kagi has already put itself on a path where it doesn't have to make itself worse to cover its expenses, because it is already covering them.

freediverx 3y ago
No, the main reason why companies turn to shit is because they’re publicly traded and accept VC money so sooner or later, they’re beholden to shareholders demanding infinite growth and profits.

carlosjobim 3y ago

This is honestly probably the most tiresome argument that constantly pops up in every HN thread. Imagine if one of your friends come back from a holiday trip and tells you how fantastic the place they visited was. Is your response "Well, maybe that place ain't going to be so nice in a few years!"?