4 ms·

but that would fall into the realm of enshitification. Linux has always been lackluster on the Desktop - fragmented, lacking features, lacking important applic

but that would fall into the realm of enshitification. Linux has always been lackluster on the Desktop - fragmented, lacking features, lacking important applications, etc - and MacOS is attached to overpriced mediocrity.

chambored 3y ago
Maybe I’m misinterpreting something, but wouldn’t enshitification require deliberate hamstringing of software to force user changes? I have a hard time seeing that applying to developers of Linux distributions.
tredre3 3y ago
> and MacOS is attached to overpriced mediocrity I'm not a mac user but calling the M1/M2 macbooks overpriced mediocrity is simply ridiculous and shows how out of touch you are.
- deprecative 3y ago
  Sure, but then you get a piece of shit that randomly shuts your USB ports off every few minutes. Why anyone spends money on their products is beyond me.
- mulmen 3y ago
  > I'm not a mac user but calling the M1/M2 macbooks overpriced mediocrity is simply ridiculous and shows how out of touch you are. M1/M2 are hardware. MacOS is software. As far as operating systems go MacOS is very much mediocre.
  - tzs 3y ago
    > M1/M2 are hardware The comment he was replying to saids that MacOS is "attached to overpriced mediocrity". It seems pretty clear that is talking about hardware.
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    I wouldn't say mediocre, it's... -Relatively secure -Game changing integration with my other Apple products (NOBODY else does this) -Stays out of my way for the most part -Runs important commercial software like Office365 natively -UNIX shell right out of the box -Homebrew is a decent package manager and easy to install -Emacs key binds for text entry fields across the entire OS -It's a little thing, but the animations and sounds make it kind of fun to use It's a bit inflexible, and the UNIX layer could use some love and modernization, I'll give you that, but once you learn to work within the paradigm, I think it's actually a really good OS. Oh, and you definitely need to install something like Rectangle to get window snapping, I can't go without that after using it on Windows and Linux, but that's easy enough to fix.
    - diffeomorphism 3y ago
      > Game changing integration with my other Apple products (NOBODY else does this) Eh, not really. They do it really well and present it very nicely, but mostly sherlocked and not at all unique. Also, it really stumbles once you throw any non-apple stuff in.
- baz00 3y ago
  They're not wrong. I've got an M1 14" MacBook Pro and a ThinkPad T14 gen 3. The MacBook is in the cupboard and the ThinkPad does the work. Despite a few rough edges it's a lot more useful and easier to drive. I genuinely prefer windows 11 as well. Less eye poking. Also from the macos side of things, some macos ports of software I use are dire and unusable.
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    Curious: what is the software you use?
    - baz00 3y ago
      Office 365 + Maxima + LTspice + VSCode + Photoshop + Lightroom + TeX/LaTeX mostly. LTspice, Maxima and O365 are horrible on macos.
- Arainach 3y ago
  There's more to a computer than hardware. M1 Macs have great performance and battery life but the experience of using OS X is awful. Why pay $1500 for a system with poor multiple monitor support, poor mixed DPI support, no keyboard shortcuts for things such as snapping windows, no ability to name virtual desktops, and so many other problems?
  - hellisothers 3y ago
    Because those things are not really that important in the grand scheme of things?
    - Arainach 3y ago
      They're absolutely important. They're things I deal with multiple times a day every day. My work laptop is a Mac. My work workstation is a Linux (Gnome) machine. My personal workstation is a Windows 10 machine (not upgrading until they bring back side taskbar). I own and regularly use a Chromebook. I am familiar with all the major desktop environments and OS X is my least favorite.
      - jcrash 3y ago
        Well, I like it!
  - fragmede 3y ago
    If work forces one on you, you can just buy the right adapter*, and install** some*** software**** helpers*****, and move on with your life. * https://www.sonnetstore.com/products/displaylink-dual-displayport-adapter-for-m1-macs https://www.sonnetstore.com/products/displaylink-dual-displa... ** https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/ *** https://github.com/dado3212/spaces-renamer https://github.com/dado3212/spaces-renamer **** https://contexts.co/ https://contexts.co/ ***** https://github.com/dbalatero/SkyRocket.spoon https://github.com/dbalatero/SkyRocket.spoon
    - Arainach 3y ago
- mastazi 3y ago
  It also depends on what parent's needs are though. Maybe they are in a situation where being able to install a PCIE card is necessary. With Mac, your only option in that case would be the Pro, which is basically an overpriced Mac Studio with PCIE slots, as Marques Brownlee puts it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2KbwC-s7pY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2KbwC-s7pY Edit: as some of the sibling comments are saying, maybe parent was talking about Mac OS itself, not the hardware. Some things in Mac OS leave a lot to be desired IME, e.g. windows tiling (can be solved by installing something like Rectangle but really it should be part of the OS) https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/
white_dragon88 3y ago
[dead]
loloquwowndueo 3y ago
I beg to differ - I’ve been using Linux on the desktop for decades and it has worked great for me. But ok, to each their own I guess.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
adev_ 3y ago
> Linux has always been lackluster on the Desktop - fragmented, lacking features, lacking important applications, etc - and MacOS is attached to overpriced mediocrity. Honestly, I would agree with that 10 years ago but not anymore. The we-yfication of clients applications and Electron (ironically) did a lot of good here. These are numbers pulled out of my Hat, but I would say out of my experience that around: - 90% of proprietary applications around nowadays are just WebApp or Electron Apps that will just run fine under Linux - 5-7% are old Win32 apps that will just run like a charm under Wine (ironically, sometimes better than under the last windows version) - 3-5% are the problematic ones. They are often Microsoft applications (Office365, Teams) or Oracle applications. The most problematic one I do find currently is Office 365 that never runs properly under Wine (probably on purpose). Even the game situation improved tremendously with the arrival of Proton.
- rbanffy 3y ago
  > - 5-7% are old Win32 apps that will just run like a charm under Wine (ironically, sometimes better than under the last windows version) And that's totally expected. Unlike WSL1, where a terrible OS pretends to be a good one, a vastly superior OS should have no issue pretending to be an inferior one. Perhaps disgust, but Wine is not sentient just yet.
  - water9 3y ago
    This argument isn’t necessarily true, and is one of the reasons why the Xbox 360 couldn’t support backwards compatibility for the original Xbox . The hardware required, for the overhead of emulation was larger than the gap between the Xbox 360 and the original Xbox performance. Eventually they had to recompile from 86 to power PC
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      I was half joking. My personal experience with both WSL1 and Cygwin, which offer a Linux-like varnish on top of a Windows environment, is that mapping Linux filesystem semantics on top of NTFS result in a sizeable performance hit. Not enough to make them unusable, of course, but enough perceive. When Wine does the same, mapping NTFS semantics on top of ext4, there is no such hit - on the contrary, if feels faster.
freeopinion 3y ago
Hmmm.., is it time for a new word, or maybe Workstation still covers it? But I'm wondering what important applications Linux Desktops are lacking. Facebook? Twitter? GMail? Linux has all those, but those are more phone apps now, aren't they? Is there anything left on modern Desktops? Adobe anything, Autodesk anything, stuff like that... are those still Desktop apps? They aren't on 90% of the desktops out there. Should the 10% be called Workstations? Perhaps the "important applications" are MS Office? Or some other MS product forced on you by an employer. But that world seems so... archaic.
sys_64738 3y ago
This view of Linux is so old fashioned I’d be embarrassed to make such statements.
- wernercd 3y ago
  some fashions never go out of style - especially ones that remain true.
asyx 3y ago
I like how everybody is giving you shit. Having used all three fairly recently: The desktop Linux environment has never been worse. With Wayland and High DPI, you're kinda forced to use KDE or Gnome to have a smooth experience. Other desktop environments are either bad at Wayland or bad at DPI scaling. But even the two poster children for Linux desktop environments are plagued by issues. Those are always minor or temporary but sometimes breaking something critically. I've had web pages just put KDE into a loop. Always crashing and then restarting. And that was weeks ago. And this happens every time. The install I had before that with gnome made every DPI scales app blurry. This simply does not happen on Windows. Regqrsing Macs: I don't trust Apple to not do something stupid either but also at least until the 15 inch MacBook air you either lived with 13 inch or you paid a lot more. Need more than one external screen? That's mbp for you. More ports? Mbp. Better GPU? Mbp. And then we really quickly get into a price range where you are comparing the most expensive Windows machines (which actually have some build quality) vs a mid range 14 inch mbp. I like the arm machines but I'm personally not convinced that anything past the base model is actually worth it. Especially outside of the high CoL areas of the US. Like, if you compare rent payment per week to the cost of the machine, you can totally see why Macs sell so well in US urban centers.

chambored 3y ago

Maybe I’m misinterpreting something, but wouldn’t enshitification require deliberate hamstringing of software to force user changes? I have a hard time seeing that applying to developers of Linux distributions.

tredre3 3y ago

> and MacOS is attached to overpriced mediocrity I'm not a mac user but calling the M1/M2 macbooks overpriced mediocrity is simply ridiculous and shows how out of touch you are.

deprecative 3y ago
Sure, but then you get a piece of shit that randomly shuts your USB ports off every few minutes. Why anyone spends money on their products is beyond me.
mulmen 3y ago
> I'm not a mac user but calling the M1/M2 macbooks overpriced mediocrity is simply ridiculous and shows how out of touch you are. M1/M2 are hardware. MacOS is software. As far as operating systems go MacOS is very much mediocre.
- tzs 3y ago
  > M1/M2 are hardware The comment he was replying to saids that MacOS is "attached to overpriced mediocrity". It seems pretty clear that is talking about hardware.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  I wouldn't say mediocre, it's... -Relatively secure -Game changing integration with my other Apple products (NOBODY else does this) -Stays out of my way for the most part -Runs important commercial software like Office365 natively -UNIX shell right out of the box -Homebrew is a decent package manager and easy to install -Emacs key binds for text entry fields across the entire OS -It's a little thing, but the animations and sounds make it kind of fun to use It's a bit inflexible, and the UNIX layer could use some love and modernization, I'll give you that, but once you learn to work within the paradigm, I think it's actually a really good OS. Oh, and you definitely need to install something like Rectangle to get window snapping, I can't go without that after using it on Windows and Linux, but that's easy enough to fix.
  - diffeomorphism 3y ago
    > Game changing integration with my other Apple products (NOBODY else does this) Eh, not really. They do it really well and present it very nicely, but mostly sherlocked and not at all unique. Also, it really stumbles once you throw any non-apple stuff in.
baz00 3y ago
They're not wrong. I've got an M1 14" MacBook Pro and a ThinkPad T14 gen 3. The MacBook is in the cupboard and the ThinkPad does the work. Despite a few rough edges it's a lot more useful and easier to drive. I genuinely prefer windows 11 as well. Less eye poking. Also from the macos side of things, some macos ports of software I use are dire and unusable.
- rbanffy 3y ago
  Curious: what is the software you use?
  - baz00 3y ago
    Office 365 + Maxima + LTspice + VSCode + Photoshop + Lightroom + TeX/LaTeX mostly. LTspice, Maxima and O365 are horrible on macos.
Arainach 3y ago
There's more to a computer than hardware. M1 Macs have great performance and battery life but the experience of using OS X is awful. Why pay $1500 for a system with poor multiple monitor support, poor mixed DPI support, no keyboard shortcuts for things such as snapping windows, no ability to name virtual desktops, and so many other problems?
- hellisothers 3y ago
  Because those things are not really that important in the grand scheme of things?
  - Arainach 3y ago
    They're absolutely important. They're things I deal with multiple times a day every day. My work laptop is a Mac. My work workstation is a Linux (Gnome) machine. My personal workstation is a Windows 10 machine (not upgrading until they bring back side taskbar). I own and regularly use a Chromebook. I am familiar with all the major desktop environments and OS X is my least favorite.
    - jcrash 3y ago
      Well, I like it!
- fragmede 3y ago
  If work forces one on you, you can just buy the right adapter*, and install** some*** software**** helpers*****, and move on with your life. * https://www.sonnetstore.com/products/displaylink-dual-displayport-adapter-for-m1-macs https://www.sonnetstore.com/products/displaylink-dual-displa... ** https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/ *** https://github.com/dado3212/spaces-renamer https://github.com/dado3212/spaces-renamer **** https://contexts.co/ https://contexts.co/ ***** https://github.com/dbalatero/SkyRocket.spoon https://github.com/dbalatero/SkyRocket.spoon
  - Arainach 3y ago
mastazi 3y ago
It also depends on what parent's needs are though. Maybe they are in a situation where being able to install a PCIE card is necessary. With Mac, your only option in that case would be the Pro, which is basically an overpriced Mac Studio with PCIE slots, as Marques Brownlee puts it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2KbwC-s7pY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2KbwC-s7pY Edit: as some of the sibling comments are saying, maybe parent was talking about Mac OS itself, not the hardware. Some things in Mac OS leave a lot to be desired IME, e.g. windows tiling (can be solved by installing something like Rectangle but really it should be part of the OS) https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/

white_dragon88 3y ago

[dead]

loloquwowndueo 3y ago

I beg to differ - I’ve been using Linux on the desktop for decades and it has worked great for me. But ok, to each their own I guess.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

adev_ 3y ago

> Linux has always been lackluster on the Desktop - fragmented, lacking features, lacking important applications, etc - and MacOS is attached to overpriced mediocrity. Honestly, I would agree with that 10 years ago but not anymore. The we-yfication of clients applications and Electron (ironically) did a lot of good here. These are numbers pulled out of my Hat, but I would say out of my experience that around: - 90% of proprietary applications around nowadays are just WebApp or Electron Apps that will just run fine under Linux - 5-7% are old Win32 apps that will just run like a charm under Wine (ironically, sometimes better than under the last windows version) - 3-5% are the problematic ones. They are often Microsoft applications (Office365, Teams) or Oracle applications. The most problematic one I do find currently is Office 365 that never runs properly under Wine (probably on purpose). Even the game situation improved tremendously with the arrival of Proton.

rbanffy 3y ago
> - 5-7% are old Win32 apps that will just run like a charm under Wine (ironically, sometimes better than under the last windows version) And that's totally expected. Unlike WSL1, where a terrible OS pretends to be a good one, a vastly superior OS should have no issue pretending to be an inferior one. Perhaps disgust, but Wine is not sentient just yet.
- water9 3y ago
  This argument isn’t necessarily true, and is one of the reasons why the Xbox 360 couldn’t support backwards compatibility for the original Xbox . The hardware required, for the overhead of emulation was larger than the gap between the Xbox 360 and the original Xbox performance. Eventually they had to recompile from 86 to power PC
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    I was half joking. My personal experience with both WSL1 and Cygwin, which offer a Linux-like varnish on top of a Windows environment, is that mapping Linux filesystem semantics on top of NTFS result in a sizeable performance hit. Not enough to make them unusable, of course, but enough perceive. When Wine does the same, mapping NTFS semantics on top of ext4, there is no such hit - on the contrary, if feels faster.

freeopinion 3y ago

Hmmm.., is it time for a new word, or maybe Workstation still covers it? But I'm wondering what important applications Linux Desktops are lacking. Facebook? Twitter? GMail? Linux has all those, but those are more phone apps now, aren't they? Is there anything left on modern Desktops? Adobe anything, Autodesk anything, stuff like that... are those still Desktop apps? They aren't on 90% of the desktops out there. Should the 10% be called Workstations? Perhaps the "important applications" are MS Office? Or some other MS product forced on you by an employer. But that world seems so... archaic.

sys_64738 3y ago

This view of Linux is so old fashioned I’d be embarrassed to make such statements.

wernercd 3y ago
some fashions never go out of style - especially ones that remain true.

asyx 3y ago

I like how everybody is giving you shit. Having used all three fairly recently: The desktop Linux environment has never been worse. With Wayland and High DPI, you're kinda forced to use KDE or Gnome to have a smooth experience. Other desktop environments are either bad at Wayland or bad at DPI scaling. But even the two poster children for Linux desktop environments are plagued by issues. Those are always minor or temporary but sometimes breaking something critically. I've had web pages just put KDE into a loop. Always crashing and then restarting. And that was weeks ago. And this happens every time. The install I had before that with gnome made every DPI scales app blurry. This simply does not happen on Windows. Regqrsing Macs: I don't trust Apple to not do something stupid either but also at least until the 15 inch MacBook air you either lived with 13 inch or you paid a lot more. Need more than one external screen? That's mbp for you. More ports? Mbp. Better GPU? Mbp. And then we really quickly get into a price range where you are comparing the most expensive Windows machines (which actually have some build quality) vs a mid range 14 inch mbp. I like the arm machines but I'm personally not convinced that anything past the base model is actually worth it. Especially outside of the high CoL areas of the US. Like, if you compare rent payment per week to the cost of the machine, you can totally see why Macs sell so well in US urban centers.