7 ms·

I am continually baffled by how keyboard enthusiasts almost never have ergonomic layouts. If you care this much about typing, surely the first thing you do is g

I am continually baffled by how keyboard enthusiasts almost never have ergonomic layouts. If you care this much about typing, surely the first thing you do is get an ergo layout. The rectangle layout is really bad, people! How can you spend this much time and energy and money on keyboards, and keep using the awful rectangle layout?

kiddico 3y ago
Let's just be honest... We like the way it looks more than we care about our long term health.
otikik 3y ago
It’s not even a rectangle, it’s a parallelogram (both hands move “up-left” or “down-right”). It’s quite baffling
- fanf2 3y ago
  Some keyboard designs unreservedly embrace it https://1upkeyboards.com/shop/keyboard-kits/diy-40-kits/zlantxl-50-mechanical-keyboard-kit/ https://1upkeyboards.com/shop/keyboard-kits/diy-40-kits/zlan... https://www.hackster.io/sonalpinto/purple-owl-a-60-keyboard-powered-by-seeed-xiao-rp2040-f73604 https://www.hackster.io/sonalpinto/purple-owl-a-60-keyboard-...
bombcar 3y ago
Keyboard enthusiasts can never get carpal tunnel because they spend too much time switching keyboards to actually type.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- catchnear4321 3y ago
  switching? upgrading. reaching for the endgame, realizing the mistakes, reaching again. art demands sacrifice. if you want to use that artisan keycap, impale your finger on it. pain is weakness leaving the body. listen to the beautiful clacks it makes. (it can get a little TKLraiser, if you will.)
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  All this stuff about oiling and dampers and such... reminds me of my favorite quote about audiophiles: > Music lovers buy stereo systems to listen to their music. > Audiophiles buy music to listen to their stereo systems.
- Tor3 3y ago
  I've been a touch typist since I was a boy, and a programmer for more than four decades (started out on teletypes), and I've never had any kind of hand or wrist problems with normal keyboards ever. I'm choosy when it comes to keyboards though, for where I do most of my programming. Never liked the clicky ones, but what one likes is individual choice. Looking at my hands as I write this, my wrists are not bent, or at least so little that I don't notice it. My hands are still in the normal touch type positions. Tried split keyboards (like so many other people did) but they don't do anything for me. "Normal" keyboards have the huge advantage that wherever I am (at customers, home, work, computer rooms, everywhere), there's a keyboard I can use.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    I've always suspected that like airbags are mainly designed to try to save people who don't wear seatbelts properly, that ergo keyboards (split, etc) are mainly designed to try to save people without proper typing posture.
- w0m 3y ago
  honestly kind of. I have (multiple) varied layout keyboards as swapping between them changes finger/arm/wrist levels. My finger/wrist pain (almost) went away when I started moving to a different layout every few weeks. I was worried about needing surgery before 30; now since splurging on (many) keebs my hands feel in a better shape than a decade ago.
donatj 3y ago
I have arthritis in my hands. Switching to a super soft rubber dome did more for me than any of the tons of ergonomic layouts I tried. I poured a lot of money into the problem, including getting a Kinesis Advantage. I don't think they actually have much medical benefit at all. I think everything they achieve can be achieved by just placing your hands in a more comfortable position. My current keyboard of choice is actually a Unix layout Sun Type 7. Keys are very easy to push but not mushy.
- quicklime 3y ago
  I also suffer from rheumatism, and I spent years (and many hundreds of dollars) trying out split keyboards before finding out that my problems had nothing to do with wrist positions. I'm now typing comfortably on a rectangular chiclet (Apple Magic) keyboard.
  - sswezey 3y ago
    I tried some mechanical keyboards back in the day for the "benefits". I never got it and my hands would be strained from typing on the high travel, high resistance keys. The Apple Keyboard (I use the UK/English International) is so much easier on my hands. They're easy to find, well-supported and robust.
    - doix 3y ago
      You are not meant to bottom out on mechanical switches, you press them until the switch actuates and then stop pressing. The advantage is that if you keep pressing a little bit after it actuates, you don't hit a hard wall. The travel distance is not that much and different switches have different resistance. Unlike the chiclet keys, where they trigger at the bottom, so you are always bottoming out and pushing against a "wall". Everyone has different problems though. I have no problems from hurting my fingers when typing, or carpel tunnel. But I do have messed up shoulders, and having them internally rotated all day is my biggest issue. The biggest relief for me was a fully split keyboard so that I can have my shoulders neutral rather than rotated. Other people have no problems with their shoulders. Most of these ergonomic things do help _someone_, I wouldn't claim that they don't work just because they don't help you.
spiffytech 3y ago
I've wondered if I have different keyboarding posture and technique from other people. My hands naturally sit at a 45-degree angle across the keyboard. For the most part, my wrists are straight and my fingers are lined up with the key diagonals. I also move my arms at the shoulders while reaching for keys, so my hand comes closer to the target key and my finger doesn't move so much. A split normal keyboard doesn't sound advantageous for me. Maybe I could be convinced to try a split ortholinear keyboard, but a 1-piece unit sounds like a very bad match for the way I keyboard. I feel like I'd be introducing all the same problems others are trying to get away from! EDIT: Just checked with my wife. She holds her hands in the same position, but locks them in place and does all of the reaching with her fingers.
manaskarekar 3y ago
There is the world of ergo and/or split keyboards, which is quite fascinating, but rather expensive to `try one that best fits me`. (Ergodox EZ, Kineses advantage, OLKB splits and many more) There is also the Alice layout, which is an interesting step towards ergonomics on a traditional keyboard. I wish there was a keyboard club or something that let you try these out for a week or so.
- coldpie 3y ago
  I've got the Feker Alice 98 and like it very much! It's a great replacement for the old Microsoft Natural Elites I've been using for well over a decade.
- jsheard 3y ago
  > I wish there was a keyboard club or something that let you try these out for a week or so. There's a useful tool for comparing ergo layouts and printing out 1:1 scale templates to get an idea of how they would fit your hand size: https://compare.splitkb.com https://compare.splitkb.com It's not quite a substitute for actually using a real keyboard, but it can help to narrow down what you might want to try.
  - microtonal 3y ago
    Sadly printing out 2D layouts doesn't work for contoured keyboards. Switching to the contoured Kinesis Advantage was the largest improvement for me (much better than the Kyria, Ferris Sweep, Moonlander, or Keyboardio Model 100). I would've never tried the Advantage if I had used a flat keyboard comparison tool. (Now using a Glove80, which provides benefits over the Advantage2 and doesn't have the issues of the Advantage360 Pro.)
    - lycopodiopsida 3y ago
      How do you find the choc switches on Glove80 compared to mx on KA2? Is the small amount of travel more problematic, because you bottom out more? I am thinking about getting one, but am unsure about the choc switches and which type I should get.
jwells89 3y ago
My hand movement is minimal with Tsangan/HHKB layout and as such, I haven't had much issue with fatigue or pain even after long stretches of typing. I find that actually, keycap profile and switch weight are bigger factors. I do have an ai03 Meridian, which is a Alice-style board (which while not ergo is more in that direction), in the closet that I need to build though but have been putting it off because it requires soldering (hotswap has spoiled me).
stronglikedan 3y ago
I started having problems with my hands, and switched to a split keyboard. I used them for years, but kept having problems. Now I'm back to a rectangle, with my wrists at an angle to the keyboard, and I don't have problems. I don't think it's the keyboard shape that's the problem, but just how some people align their hands with it. I do credit the years of split keyboards with teaching me proper wrist alignment though. And after getting my fingers used to it, I'm much faster and more accurate on the rectangle. Not to mention I have a real choice when purchasing keyboards again.
colanderman 3y ago
The rectangle layout is only bad if you are a home-row typist. The problem with home-row typing is that your wrists are bent. It's possible to learn to type without bending your wrists. I am self-taught and have typed this way for three decades with no wrist issues due to keyboard use. My fingers rest naturally on "QWERF" and "JIOP". I actually cannot type on "ergo" keyboards due to the angles being wrong, and not being able to reach certain keys with both hands. (I did once have wrist issues due to mouse use, about 15 years ago. This disappeared when switching to a trackball.) Anyone who prefers "Control" next to "A" (myself included) is likely old enough to have learned to type before computer typing lessons were common, so maybe the author also is not a home-row typist.
- jrexilius 3y ago
  I'm in the same boat as you. Tried ergo keyboard once and it was really awkward for me.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  I played piano long before I learned to type, and it's natural for me to move my hands all over the place. I've never contorted my fingers the way "correct" typists do.
  - majewsky 3y ago
    Oh, so that is why my own no-rules typing method is working so well! I never made that connection.
    - kstrauser 3y ago
      It's just a hypothesis, but I think it's plausible!
  - colanderman 3y ago
    Learned to play piano and type cotemporaneously myself.
- orbital-decay 3y ago
strongly-typed 3y ago
I am continually baffled by how keyboard enthusiasts almost never use optimized layouts. If you care this much about typing, surely the first thing you do is get an ergo layout and then use an optimized layout such as Colemak or any of the myriad modern layout options available today. I personally use graphite (github.com/rdavison/graphite-layout), or rather, a mod of it that has an AI generated symbol layer. The Qwerty layout is really bad, people! How can you spend this much time and energy and money on keyboards, and keep using the awful Qwerty layout? EDIT: Jokes aside, truly I wonder, for the column stagger folks who use qwerty, how do you deal with the “in” bigram? It’s one of the most common bigrams in English, and a column stagger layout usually _increases_ that distance, ie, it’s actually less ergonomic.
CTDOCodebases 3y ago
What do you mean by ergo? Split? Columnar? Splayed? Sculpted? The rectangle layout doesn't cause me issues maybe because I don't bend my wrists sharply when typing and I use a palm rest. There is definitely a benefit to going split (less hunching of the back and shoulders) but then it can cause cramping with the pinkies. Cramping of the pinking can be solved with a columnar layout for some but by that point you are having to relearn to type. The problem with ergonomic layouts is that they are not a one size fits all and it can get costly and time consuming to figure out what works for you. Personally I have arrived at a Cantour Remix with a Colemak-DHm layout but even then I am only 90% happy with this setup. Fear of losing typing speed holds a lot of people back from trying ergo layouts but from my experience it's possible to use Qwerty during the day while learning another layout on a split board at night without it impacting my Qwerty typing speed.
z0r 3y ago
I got a Unicomp model M with a trackball at the top right corner of the case and rubber dome keycaps (so I can use it at the office without annoying all my neighbors) and it's currently the longest running keyboard I've comfortably been able to use, for more than 7 years now. I had to use a gold touch 'tented' split keyboard for half a year when I was dealing with some sport induced wrist and hand issues, but otherwise a full sized keyboard hasn't cause me to develop any injury. I do appreciate that when I use the trackball my right hand cups the corner of the case and my wrist remains in a vertical position - that does feel kind of ergonomic. I have a left handed vertical mouse on my desk from around the same time I had to use the gold touch and it's a nice backup. I did have keyboard related wrist issues in the past but it was mostly from truly bad keyboards - e.g. spent a couple of years using an Apple 'magic' keyboard. I have no interest in using a tiny reduced layout input device.
- laurencerowe 3y ago
  I find the big advantage of the reduced layout is that it moves the mouse/trackpad closer, reducing strain on my arm as a reach between the two. I like the magic keyboard because it requires little effort to actuate the key and makes it easy to switch up my working position as it is so similar to the laptop keyboard. I wish Apple would offer a combined keyboard and trackpad for desktop use that was the same as their laptops. I find being able to switch hands on the trackpad reduces strain.
thanhhaimai 3y ago
I used to be a keyboard enthusiasts. I spent a lot of money on various keyboard. Then I got the Kinesis Advantage, and it completely changed me. I have now been typing on the same keyboard for 5+ years. And I probably haven't changed my layout in the last 4 years. It just works so well that I no longer see a need to "find something better". I think it might be a result of selection bias when you see more "keyboard enthusiasts" with non ergonomic keyboard. When they find their fit with the right ergonomic keyboard/layout, they might not be that active with looking anymore.
wesapien 3y ago
Just got myself a Glove80 with the linear Choc Pro Red switchtes (35gf). Glad I held off on other keyboards for this. It's so satisfying to type on. It's only been more than a couple of days and I already got the hand of it for the most part. Trying Coleman makes it even easier and I plan on being proficient on Coleman and qwerty.
- microtonal 3y ago
  The Glove80 is great! It's like the Kinesis Advantage, but with improved key wells and thumb clusters.
shadowofneptune 3y ago
In my personal experience, you avoid repetitive stress injuries by shaking up how you type. Reaching for the mouse, moving where you hold your hands. It's the old way of teaching typing with a rigid posture that causes carpal tunnel, not the rectangle frame in itself. Ergo layouts are nice in theory but they make it harder to touch type. The modern keyboard layout is an example of a standard that works: everyone can sit down at a keyboard and start typing, even if function keys are different here or there. EDIT: Ah, of course I am just one singer in the chorus of self-taught typists responding.
- brightlancer 3y ago
  > Ergo layouts are nice in theory but they make it harder to touch type. Because they're the exception? That's a bad rule. The only way we improve things is by creating exceptions and adopting them. Personally, I switched to ergo keyboards 20+ years ago and I'm much happier for it. I've had to change models over the years and there was always a brief adjustment, but it was minor -- and my hands rest is such a more natural position!
  - shadowofneptune 3y ago
    See, you are demonstrating what I mean right here. I would like to switch just once. The Microsoft ergo model is the closest to a standard, it seems.
- TonyStr 3y ago
  How do Ergo layouts make it harder to touch type? I learnt touch typing after getting my first ergo keyboard, but I found it a transferrable skill to normal qwerty staggered keyboards with little need for adjustment. My error rate might be 1% higher on none-ergo keyboards, but otherwise I don't notice much difference. For reference, I use a ZSA Moonlander.
  - shadowofneptune 3y ago
    Personally, the split is a big problem. I don't keep a strict separation of left-hand and right-hand during typing.
nikau 3y ago
Because its about looks. They also use stupid "aviation" connectors on USB cables and all sorts of things, its just aesthetics.
MarcusE1W 3y ago
I think that most people use more than one keyboard, at home, work, public computers, on a laptop etc. Many of them will have a QWERTY (or the local variant) layout. In that case you can use your super duper specialised layout on one keyboard, but every time you change to a different system you have to use the old layout again. For me that was more hassle than benefit. Also, most people don’t even touch type, does not mean they don’t like a nice keyboard.
roydivision 3y ago
The main reason I don’t stray too much from a ‘standard’ layout is that I type on a number of different keyboards in a given day, my wfh keyboard, my personal laptop, and the keyboard I have at work. If I went the ergo way I’d either have to have three, or cart one around with me, which is more hassle than it’s worth.
wakeupcall 3y ago
If you're referring to the "mechanical keyboard" and similar subreddit trends, it's pretty obvious that the fascination is in the DIY and styling aspect. It's amazing how many switches you can find today, mostly boring variations of the mx types where people post minutes-long videos of sound and smoothness when lubed. And how it does rainbow. This is clearly what sells. Ergonomic keyboards are a completely different market. You can't review an ergo keyboard in 5 minutes, or 5 days. The effort required to learn, and then judge the aspect of a different layout is much, much harder and time consuming. I'd argue it takes months by my own experience. Ergonomic also means something different to each of us. For people coming in with RSI or other issues, there's no single "best" solution. What I'm quite happy with though is that this keyboard craze has still increased the number of alternative/ergonomic layouts (and somewhat lowered the price) anyway.
w0m 3y ago
My last 3 keyboard purchases have all been some level of split for this reason (Work, WFH Desk, and tertiary WFH desk).

kiddico 3y ago

Let's just be honest... We like the way it looks more than we care about our long term health.

otikik 3y ago

It’s not even a rectangle, it’s a parallelogram (both hands move “up-left” or “down-right”). It’s quite baffling

fanf2 3y ago
Some keyboard designs unreservedly embrace it https://1upkeyboards.com/shop/keyboard-kits/diy-40-kits/zlantxl-50-mechanical-keyboard-kit/ https://1upkeyboards.com/shop/keyboard-kits/diy-40-kits/zlan... https://www.hackster.io/sonalpinto/purple-owl-a-60-keyboard-powered-by-seeed-xiao-rp2040-f73604 https://www.hackster.io/sonalpinto/purple-owl-a-60-keyboard-...

bombcar 3y ago

Keyboard enthusiasts can never get carpal tunnel because they spend too much time switching keyboards to actually type.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
catchnear4321 3y ago
switching? upgrading. reaching for the endgame, realizing the mistakes, reaching again. art demands sacrifice. if you want to use that artisan keycap, impale your finger on it. pain is weakness leaving the body. listen to the beautiful clacks it makes. (it can get a little TKLraiser, if you will.)
FireBeyond 3y ago
All this stuff about oiling and dampers and such... reminds me of my favorite quote about audiophiles: > Music lovers buy stereo systems to listen to their music. > Audiophiles buy music to listen to their stereo systems.
Tor3 3y ago
I've been a touch typist since I was a boy, and a programmer for more than four decades (started out on teletypes), and I've never had any kind of hand or wrist problems with normal keyboards ever. I'm choosy when it comes to keyboards though, for where I do most of my programming. Never liked the clicky ones, but what one likes is individual choice. Looking at my hands as I write this, my wrists are not bent, or at least so little that I don't notice it. My hands are still in the normal touch type positions. Tried split keyboards (like so many other people did) but they don't do anything for me. "Normal" keyboards have the huge advantage that wherever I am (at customers, home, work, computer rooms, everywhere), there's a keyboard I can use.
- bombcar 3y ago
  I've always suspected that like airbags are mainly designed to try to save people who don't wear seatbelts properly, that ergo keyboards (split, etc) are mainly designed to try to save people without proper typing posture.
w0m 3y ago
honestly kind of. I have (multiple) varied layout keyboards as swapping between them changes finger/arm/wrist levels. My finger/wrist pain (almost) went away when I started moving to a different layout every few weeks. I was worried about needing surgery before 30; now since splurging on (many) keebs my hands feel in a better shape than a decade ago.

donatj 3y ago

I have arthritis in my hands. Switching to a super soft rubber dome did more for me than any of the tons of ergonomic layouts I tried. I poured a lot of money into the problem, including getting a Kinesis Advantage. I don't think they actually have much medical benefit at all. I think everything they achieve can be achieved by just placing your hands in a more comfortable position. My current keyboard of choice is actually a Unix layout Sun Type 7. Keys are very easy to push but not mushy.

quicklime 3y ago
I also suffer from rheumatism, and I spent years (and many hundreds of dollars) trying out split keyboards before finding out that my problems had nothing to do with wrist positions. I'm now typing comfortably on a rectangular chiclet (Apple Magic) keyboard.
- sswezey 3y ago
  I tried some mechanical keyboards back in the day for the "benefits". I never got it and my hands would be strained from typing on the high travel, high resistance keys. The Apple Keyboard (I use the UK/English International) is so much easier on my hands. They're easy to find, well-supported and robust.
  - doix 3y ago
    You are not meant to bottom out on mechanical switches, you press them until the switch actuates and then stop pressing. The advantage is that if you keep pressing a little bit after it actuates, you don't hit a hard wall. The travel distance is not that much and different switches have different resistance. Unlike the chiclet keys, where they trigger at the bottom, so you are always bottoming out and pushing against a "wall". Everyone has different problems though. I have no problems from hurting my fingers when typing, or carpel tunnel. But I do have messed up shoulders, and having them internally rotated all day is my biggest issue. The biggest relief for me was a fully split keyboard so that I can have my shoulders neutral rather than rotated. Other people have no problems with their shoulders. Most of these ergonomic things do help _someone_, I wouldn't claim that they don't work just because they don't help you.

spiffytech 3y ago

I've wondered if I have different keyboarding posture and technique from other people. My hands naturally sit at a 45-degree angle across the keyboard. For the most part, my wrists are straight and my fingers are lined up with the key diagonals. I also move my arms at the shoulders while reaching for keys, so my hand comes closer to the target key and my finger doesn't move so much. A split normal keyboard doesn't sound advantageous for me. Maybe I could be convinced to try a split ortholinear keyboard, but a 1-piece unit sounds like a very bad match for the way I keyboard. I feel like I'd be introducing all the same problems others are trying to get away from! EDIT: Just checked with my wife. She holds her hands in the same position, but locks them in place and does all of the reaching with her fingers.

manaskarekar 3y ago

There is the world of ergo and/or split keyboards, which is quite fascinating, but rather expensive to `try one that best fits me`. (Ergodox EZ, Kineses advantage, OLKB splits and many more) There is also the Alice layout, which is an interesting step towards ergonomics on a traditional keyboard. I wish there was a keyboard club or something that let you try these out for a week or so.

coldpie 3y ago
I've got the Feker Alice 98 and like it very much! It's a great replacement for the old Microsoft Natural Elites I've been using for well over a decade.
jsheard 3y ago
> I wish there was a keyboard club or something that let you try these out for a week or so. There's a useful tool for comparing ergo layouts and printing out 1:1 scale templates to get an idea of how they would fit your hand size: https://compare.splitkb.com https://compare.splitkb.com It's not quite a substitute for actually using a real keyboard, but it can help to narrow down what you might want to try.
- microtonal 3y ago
  Sadly printing out 2D layouts doesn't work for contoured keyboards. Switching to the contoured Kinesis Advantage was the largest improvement for me (much better than the Kyria, Ferris Sweep, Moonlander, or Keyboardio Model 100). I would've never tried the Advantage if I had used a flat keyboard comparison tool. (Now using a Glove80, which provides benefits over the Advantage2 and doesn't have the issues of the Advantage360 Pro.)
  - lycopodiopsida 3y ago
    How do you find the choc switches on Glove80 compared to mx on KA2? Is the small amount of travel more problematic, because you bottom out more? I am thinking about getting one, but am unsure about the choc switches and which type I should get.

jwells89 3y ago

My hand movement is minimal with Tsangan/HHKB layout and as such, I haven't had much issue with fatigue or pain even after long stretches of typing. I find that actually, keycap profile and switch weight are bigger factors. I do have an ai03 Meridian, which is a Alice-style board (which while not ergo is more in that direction), in the closet that I need to build though but have been putting it off because it requires soldering (hotswap has spoiled me).

stronglikedan 3y ago

I started having problems with my hands, and switched to a split keyboard. I used them for years, but kept having problems. Now I'm back to a rectangle, with my wrists at an angle to the keyboard, and I don't have problems. I don't think it's the keyboard shape that's the problem, but just how some people align their hands with it. I do credit the years of split keyboards with teaching me proper wrist alignment though. And after getting my fingers used to it, I'm much faster and more accurate on the rectangle. Not to mention I have a real choice when purchasing keyboards again.

colanderman 3y ago

The rectangle layout is only bad if you are a home-row typist. The problem with home-row typing is that your wrists are bent. It's possible to learn to type without bending your wrists. I am self-taught and have typed this way for three decades with no wrist issues due to keyboard use. My fingers rest naturally on "QWERF" and "JIOP". I actually cannot type on "ergo" keyboards due to the angles being wrong, and not being able to reach certain keys with both hands. (I did once have wrist issues due to mouse use, about 15 years ago. This disappeared when switching to a trackball.) Anyone who prefers "Control" next to "A" (myself included) is likely old enough to have learned to type before computer typing lessons were common, so maybe the author also is not a home-row typist.

jrexilius 3y ago
I'm in the same boat as you. Tried ergo keyboard once and it was really awkward for me.
kstrauser 3y ago
I played piano long before I learned to type, and it's natural for me to move my hands all over the place. I've never contorted my fingers the way "correct" typists do.
- majewsky 3y ago
  Oh, so that is why my own no-rules typing method is working so well! I never made that connection.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    It's just a hypothesis, but I think it's plausible!
- colanderman 3y ago
  Learned to play piano and type cotemporaneously myself.
orbital-decay 3y ago

strongly-typed 3y ago

I am continually baffled by how keyboard enthusiasts almost never use optimized layouts. If you care this much about typing, surely the first thing you do is get an ergo layout and then use an optimized layout such as Colemak or any of the myriad modern layout options available today. I personally use graphite (github.com/rdavison/graphite-layout), or rather, a mod of it that has an AI generated symbol layer. The Qwerty layout is really bad, people! How can you spend this much time and energy and money on keyboards, and keep using the awful Qwerty layout? EDIT: Jokes aside, truly I wonder, for the column stagger folks who use qwerty, how do you deal with the “in” bigram? It’s one of the most common bigrams in English, and a column stagger layout usually _increases_ that distance, ie, it’s actually less ergonomic.

CTDOCodebases 3y ago

What do you mean by ergo? Split? Columnar? Splayed? Sculpted? The rectangle layout doesn't cause me issues maybe because I don't bend my wrists sharply when typing and I use a palm rest. There is definitely a benefit to going split (less hunching of the back and shoulders) but then it can cause cramping with the pinkies. Cramping of the pinking can be solved with a columnar layout for some but by that point you are having to relearn to type. The problem with ergonomic layouts is that they are not a one size fits all and it can get costly and time consuming to figure out what works for you. Personally I have arrived at a Cantour Remix with a Colemak-DHm layout but even then I am only 90% happy with this setup. Fear of losing typing speed holds a lot of people back from trying ergo layouts but from my experience it's possible to use Qwerty during the day while learning another layout on a split board at night without it impacting my Qwerty typing speed.

z0r 3y ago

I got a Unicomp model M with a trackball at the top right corner of the case and rubber dome keycaps (so I can use it at the office without annoying all my neighbors) and it's currently the longest running keyboard I've comfortably been able to use, for more than 7 years now. I had to use a gold touch 'tented' split keyboard for half a year when I was dealing with some sport induced wrist and hand issues, but otherwise a full sized keyboard hasn't cause me to develop any injury. I do appreciate that when I use the trackball my right hand cups the corner of the case and my wrist remains in a vertical position - that does feel kind of ergonomic. I have a left handed vertical mouse on my desk from around the same time I had to use the gold touch and it's a nice backup. I did have keyboard related wrist issues in the past but it was mostly from truly bad keyboards - e.g. spent a couple of years using an Apple 'magic' keyboard. I have no interest in using a tiny reduced layout input device.

laurencerowe 3y ago
I find the big advantage of the reduced layout is that it moves the mouse/trackpad closer, reducing strain on my arm as a reach between the two. I like the magic keyboard because it requires little effort to actuate the key and makes it easy to switch up my working position as it is so similar to the laptop keyboard. I wish Apple would offer a combined keyboard and trackpad for desktop use that was the same as their laptops. I find being able to switch hands on the trackpad reduces strain.

thanhhaimai 3y ago

I used to be a keyboard enthusiasts. I spent a lot of money on various keyboard. Then I got the Kinesis Advantage, and it completely changed me. I have now been typing on the same keyboard for 5+ years. And I probably haven't changed my layout in the last 4 years. It just works so well that I no longer see a need to "find something better". I think it might be a result of selection bias when you see more "keyboard enthusiasts" with non ergonomic keyboard. When they find their fit with the right ergonomic keyboard/layout, they might not be that active with looking anymore.

wesapien 3y ago

Just got myself a Glove80 with the linear Choc Pro Red switchtes (35gf). Glad I held off on other keyboards for this. It's so satisfying to type on. It's only been more than a couple of days and I already got the hand of it for the most part. Trying Coleman makes it even easier and I plan on being proficient on Coleman and qwerty.

microtonal 3y ago
The Glove80 is great! It's like the Kinesis Advantage, but with improved key wells and thumb clusters.

shadowofneptune 3y ago

In my personal experience, you avoid repetitive stress injuries by shaking up how you type. Reaching for the mouse, moving where you hold your hands. It's the old way of teaching typing with a rigid posture that causes carpal tunnel, not the rectangle frame in itself. Ergo layouts are nice in theory but they make it harder to touch type. The modern keyboard layout is an example of a standard that works: everyone can sit down at a keyboard and start typing, even if function keys are different here or there. EDIT: Ah, of course I am just one singer in the chorus of self-taught typists responding.

brightlancer 3y ago
> Ergo layouts are nice in theory but they make it harder to touch type. Because they're the exception? That's a bad rule. The only way we improve things is by creating exceptions and adopting them. Personally, I switched to ergo keyboards 20+ years ago and I'm much happier for it. I've had to change models over the years and there was always a brief adjustment, but it was minor -- and my hands rest is such a more natural position!
- shadowofneptune 3y ago
  See, you are demonstrating what I mean right here. I would like to switch just once. The Microsoft ergo model is the closest to a standard, it seems.
TonyStr 3y ago
How do Ergo layouts make it harder to touch type? I learnt touch typing after getting my first ergo keyboard, but I found it a transferrable skill to normal qwerty staggered keyboards with little need for adjustment. My error rate might be 1% higher on none-ergo keyboards, but otherwise I don't notice much difference. For reference, I use a ZSA Moonlander.
- shadowofneptune 3y ago
  Personally, the split is a big problem. I don't keep a strict separation of left-hand and right-hand during typing.

nikau 3y ago

Because its about looks. They also use stupid "aviation" connectors on USB cables and all sorts of things, its just aesthetics.

MarcusE1W 3y ago

I think that most people use more than one keyboard, at home, work, public computers, on a laptop etc. Many of them will have a QWERTY (or the local variant) layout. In that case you can use your super duper specialised layout on one keyboard, but every time you change to a different system you have to use the old layout again. For me that was more hassle than benefit. Also, most people don’t even touch type, does not mean they don’t like a nice keyboard.

roydivision 3y ago

The main reason I don’t stray too much from a ‘standard’ layout is that I type on a number of different keyboards in a given day, my wfh keyboard, my personal laptop, and the keyboard I have at work. If I went the ergo way I’d either have to have three, or cart one around with me, which is more hassle than it’s worth.

wakeupcall 3y ago

If you're referring to the "mechanical keyboard" and similar subreddit trends, it's pretty obvious that the fascination is in the DIY and styling aspect. It's amazing how many switches you can find today, mostly boring variations of the mx types where people post minutes-long videos of sound and smoothness when lubed. And how it does rainbow. This is clearly what sells. Ergonomic keyboards are a completely different market. You can't review an ergo keyboard in 5 minutes, or 5 days. The effort required to learn, and then judge the aspect of a different layout is much, much harder and time consuming. I'd argue it takes months by my own experience. Ergonomic also means something different to each of us. For people coming in with RSI or other issues, there's no single "best" solution. What I'm quite happy with though is that this keyboard craze has still increased the number of alternative/ergonomic layouts (and somewhat lowered the price) anyway.

w0m 3y ago

My last 3 keyboard purchases have all been some level of split for this reason (Work, WFH Desk, and tertiary WFH desk).