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> non-artists to use other people's skills instead Here is where I think you're wrong: Everyone is a potential artist. Many never have the opportunity because

by cwkoss 3y ago

> non-artists to use other people's skills instead Here is where I think you're wrong: Everyone is a potential artist. Many never have the opportunity because of economic reasons: some people don't have the time to cultivate the mechanical skills necessary to render their vision. All artists pull from the work of others constantly. That is 'using other people's skills'. It is absolutely privileged to have the opportunity to devote time cultivating art production skills (which is usually done by studying and replicating the process of the artists that came before them). If someone is born to a single mother, grows up having to raise their siblings, then has to immediately start working to help support their family, they don't have the privilege or time to explore art production skills. Technology has been making art production more accessible for hundreds of years, and that's a clear net good. I want everyone to be able to make art if they want to. It up to the artist if they want to manifest their vision without creating the pigments and brushes themselves, or using a drawing tablet, or using generative AI tools - it all can be art that is meaningful to the person who creates it and more art in the world is a good thing. Commercial art isn't a very good representation of the artists soul: they are constrained by market forces or their patron rather than producing what their own heart desires. We should all be happy to sacrifice commercial art jobs if it means that every person in the world gains the ability to render the art that comes from their soul.

chefandy 3y ago
So, in summary, no professional artist's socioeconomic wellbeing matters because all artists are really the same... and everybody is an artist really, and not all artists start with the same socioeconomic advantages so this is really about about equality... but at the same time, it's about "sorry, that's the market and you lost" capitalism, and blah blah blah. Being a professional artist isn't fucking magic. It's not winning the lottery or even getting drafted for a pro sports team. It's a large group of regular fucking careers just like any other but creativity makes up a larger percentage of their professional cognitive toolkit. I know a workaday oil painter who's neither well-known nor rich but went to college to learn how to be an oil painter and that's how he comfortably pays his bills. He paints seaside landscapes, wealthy people buy them to put in their vacation homes, and that's how he makes his money. He was in college right along side with graphic designers, animators, architects, product designers, user interface designers, and all manor of other professional artists. Just like any other non-licensed white collar profession, people who didn't go to school are in the business, but it's harder. I also know a professional comic book artist, many animators, sculptors that work in product development, and plenty of other professional artists that built normal careers like any other white collar professional. The fact that not everybody can go to art school to build an art career doesn't change the disposition of professional artists any more than not everybody being able to afford to go to medical school affects the disposition of doctors, and having "the soul of a healer" doesn't really enter the goddamned equation, does it? Whether you're being deliberately obtuse or are painfully ignorant about something you've got a lot of strong, baseless opinions about, you're obviously not going to cut the bullshit and be honest with yourself. The reason you have to delve into all of these pseudo-philosophical mental gymnastics is because you're wrong, but you really don't want to be, so you're trying to construct a reality in which you're right. That's not how reality works. Using people's work without their permission to make a for-profit system to compete with them in their professional marketplace is not moral no matter how big of a castle of bullshit logic you build around it. Bye bye. I'm going to let you hang out in your little land of make-believe by yourself.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  Interesting discussion. I notice a lot of artists on HN get riled up particularly when AI media generation is brought up, while coders get riled up when AI code generation is brought up, while each side dismisses the other. Fundamentally, this shows me that it's not really about the morals at all but the economics of losing one's livelihood. Fortunately for one and unfortunately for the other, technology will continue to march on, it seems.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    > it's not really about the morals at all but the economics of losing one's livelihood That's a false dichotomy. Just because the economic issue and cultural impact are separate doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive. If a mugger stopped taking people's money and instead just walked around making people afraid for their lives by intimidating them or beating them up, that would still be immoral.
    - satvikpendem 3y ago
      In your point of view it's immoral, not from everyone's, it seems. Either way, technology still arrives.
      - chefandy 3y ago
        > Fundamentally, this shows me that it's not really about the morals at all but the economics of losing one's livelihood. Whether people consider it immoral has no bearing on whether or not the cultural and economic issues are mutually exclusive-- they're not. You can't say that the argument is only about the economic issue simply because there is an important economic argument. It just doesn't make sense.

by cwkoss 3y ago

chefandy 3y ago

So, in summary, no professional artist's socioeconomic wellbeing matters because all artists are really the same... and everybody is an artist really, and not all artists start with the same socioeconomic advantages so this is really about about equality... but at the same time, it's about "sorry, that's the market and you lost" capitalism, and blah blah blah. Being a professional artist isn't fucking magic. It's not winning the lottery or even getting drafted for a pro sports team. It's a large group of regular fucking careers just like any other but creativity makes up a larger percentage of their professional cognitive toolkit. I know a workaday oil painter who's neither well-known nor rich but went to college to learn how to be an oil painter and that's how he comfortably pays his bills. He paints seaside landscapes, wealthy people buy them to put in their vacation homes, and that's how he makes his money. He was in college right along side with graphic designers, animators, architects, product designers, user interface designers, and all manor of other professional artists. Just like any other non-licensed white collar profession, people who didn't go to school are in the business, but it's harder. I also know a professional comic book artist, many animators, sculptors that work in product development, and plenty of other professional artists that built normal careers like any other white collar professional. The fact that not everybody can go to art school to build an art career doesn't change the disposition of professional artists any more than not everybody being able to afford to go to medical school affects the disposition of doctors, and having "the soul of a healer" doesn't really enter the goddamned equation, does it? Whether you're being deliberately obtuse or are painfully ignorant about something you've got a lot of strong, baseless opinions about, you're obviously not going to cut the bullshit and be honest with yourself. The reason you have to delve into all of these pseudo-philosophical mental gymnastics is because you're wrong, but you really don't want to be, so you're trying to construct a reality in which you're right. That's not how reality works. Using people's work without their permission to make a for-profit system to compete with them in their professional marketplace is not moral no matter how big of a castle of bullshit logic you build around it. Bye bye. I'm going to let you hang out in your little land of make-believe by yourself.

satvikpendem 3y ago
Interesting discussion. I notice a lot of artists on HN get riled up particularly when AI media generation is brought up, while coders get riled up when AI code generation is brought up, while each side dismisses the other. Fundamentally, this shows me that it's not really about the morals at all but the economics of losing one's livelihood. Fortunately for one and unfortunately for the other, technology will continue to march on, it seems.
- chefandy 3y ago
  > it's not really about the morals at all but the economics of losing one's livelihood That's a false dichotomy. Just because the economic issue and cultural impact are separate doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive. If a mugger stopped taking people's money and instead just walked around making people afraid for their lives by intimidating them or beating them up, that would still be immoral.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    In your point of view it's immoral, not from everyone's, it seems. Either way, technology still arrives.
    - chefandy 3y ago
      > Fundamentally, this shows me that it's not really about the morals at all but the economics of losing one's livelihood. Whether people consider it immoral has no bearing on whether or not the cultural and economic issues are mutually exclusive-- they're not. You can't say that the argument is only about the economic issue simply because there is an important economic argument. It just doesn't make sense.