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I'm going to make a really shitty analogy because I'm bored. Cash = chamber pot / outhouse Electronic payments = modern plumbing People shat for millennia wit

I'm going to make a really shitty analogy because I'm bored. Cash = chamber pot / outhouse Electronic payments = modern plumbing People shat for millennia without modern plumbing. Installing and maintaining modern plumbing often requires external expertise who will wish to be paid for their services. In developed countries, the modern plumbing also needs to connect to public infrastructure and comply with a variety of regulations. By choosing modern plumbing over chamber pots, we got rid of some issues pretty much entirely (monetary analogies in parentheses)... - No one has to empty the shit bucket / shovel dirt in the hole (the business does not need to send an employee to the bank with a money bag) - No one has to smell the shit of the previous user/customer (no one has to handle physical objects that may have had an interesting and/or disgusting journey prior [0] [1]) - Massive reduction in fecal-borne illnesses (reduced employee theft, fraud potential) Day to day, I'm sure the outhouse is "cheaper" than toilets. I'll take all the benefits of modern plumbing. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9aM_dT5VMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9aM_dT5VMI [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_currency

cuttysnark 3y ago
I like your analogy, but it excludes a reason I've heard from at least a few candid bar owners in NYC: "Do you know how much money you can hide in these drawers?" Which is to say "do you have any idea how peaceful it is to use the restroom with a locking door and no security cameras?" I'm not saying I agree with or endorse tax evasion—but some are doing it for this very reason, while others simply don't want a 3rd party to their b2c transactions (for whatever reason) and are ready and willing to lose customers who only want to pay in plastic. Some even offer the consolation ATM on-premises.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
  Forgive me if I don't exactly take "I can't commit crime as easily" as a good justification for anything. If you don't like the tax law, work on getting it changed or move your business somewhere where the taxes are more to your liking. Oh, being in NYC gives you access to a massive market you wouldn't have if you were in a lower tax environment? A market that continues to exist thanks to infrastructure funded via tax revenue? Funny how that works...
  - cuttysnark 3y ago
    > Forgive me if I don't exactly take "I can't commit crime as easily" as a good justification for anything. That was half of it—the other half was some businesses would prefer to not have a credit card processor party to their sale. It could be for a number of reasons that that are perfectly valid and legal. > If you don't like the tax law, work on getting it changed or move your business Also, to be clear, I am but a messenger. I don't own a business or take cash or credit card payments. If I did, I reckon I'd report them accurately for fear of getting audited and hauled off to prison—but I do appreciate your enthusiasm.
    - sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
      Sorry for the late reply but it's Monday and I don't feel like doing actual work yet and lol, just lol if you read HN when you're not on the clock. Much like taxes, it comes down to market access. By accepting credit cards, they get access to a larger market, a larger potential set of customers. The cashless person can patronize their business thanks to the electronic payment infrastructure the banks created and maintain. That infrastructure is paid for by transaction fees. If a business owner feels that cards are too much of a privacy issue or whatever aside from the fees, that's their opinion and they're welcome to it. They can work to find payment systems and markets that align with their values if it bugs them sufficiently. There is a possibility that the intersection of the sets of "places where the markets align with their values", "places where the business owner wants to operate", and "places where the business can be successful" might be small or nonexistent. You can't always get what you want, as the song says. Likewise, a business owner who feels taxes are unfair can look for places where the taxes align to their values. There may or may not be places that have an agreeable tax structure and sufficient markets to sustain the business. I get pretty tired of business owners who act like the government and service providers are unjustly stealing from them when often the business' entire ability to exist and sustain itself depends on the infrastructure and services provided. You're the messenger, yes, but no one forced you to put your hands on the keyboard. Don't be surprised if you're handed a response for the message you chose to deliver. Feel free to carry it back to the business owners you've chatted with.

cuttysnark 3y ago

I like your analogy, but it excludes a reason I've heard from at least a few candid bar owners in NYC: "Do you know how much money you can hide in these drawers?" Which is to say "do you have any idea how peaceful it is to use the restroom with a locking door and no security cameras?" I'm not saying I agree with or endorse tax evasion—but some are doing it for this very reason, while others simply don't want a 3rd party to their b2c transactions (for whatever reason) and are ready and willing to lose customers who only want to pay in plastic. Some even offer the consolation ATM on-premises.

sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
Forgive me if I don't exactly take "I can't commit crime as easily" as a good justification for anything. If you don't like the tax law, work on getting it changed or move your business somewhere where the taxes are more to your liking. Oh, being in NYC gives you access to a massive market you wouldn't have if you were in a lower tax environment? A market that continues to exist thanks to infrastructure funded via tax revenue? Funny how that works...
- cuttysnark 3y ago
  > Forgive me if I don't exactly take "I can't commit crime as easily" as a good justification for anything. That was half of it—the other half was some businesses would prefer to not have a credit card processor party to their sale. It could be for a number of reasons that that are perfectly valid and legal. > If you don't like the tax law, work on getting it changed or move your business Also, to be clear, I am but a messenger. I don't own a business or take cash or credit card payments. If I did, I reckon I'd report them accurately for fear of getting audited and hauled off to prison—but I do appreciate your enthusiasm.
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
    Sorry for the late reply but it's Monday and I don't feel like doing actual work yet and lol, just lol if you read HN when you're not on the clock. Much like taxes, it comes down to market access. By accepting credit cards, they get access to a larger market, a larger potential set of customers. The cashless person can patronize their business thanks to the electronic payment infrastructure the banks created and maintain. That infrastructure is paid for by transaction fees. If a business owner feels that cards are too much of a privacy issue or whatever aside from the fees, that's their opinion and they're welcome to it. They can work to find payment systems and markets that align with their values if it bugs them sufficiently. There is a possibility that the intersection of the sets of "places where the markets align with their values", "places where the business owner wants to operate", and "places where the business can be successful" might be small or nonexistent. You can't always get what you want, as the song says. Likewise, a business owner who feels taxes are unfair can look for places where the taxes align to their values. There may or may not be places that have an agreeable tax structure and sufficient markets to sustain the business. I get pretty tired of business owners who act like the government and service providers are unjustly stealing from them when often the business' entire ability to exist and sustain itself depends on the infrastructure and services provided. You're the messenger, yes, but no one forced you to put your hands on the keyboard. Don't be surprised if you're handed a response for the message you chose to deliver. Feel free to carry it back to the business owners you've chatted with.