4 ms·

Tesla sued for false advertising after allegedly exaggerating EV ranges

26 points by gsibble 3y ago

jbm 3y ago
I rented a Hyundai Ioniq5 and them a Model X while visiting family on two separate visits, two weeks apart. The Model X was a 2017 model, but I cannot believe the level of deterioration on the battery. I was barely able to do 200 km on a 90% charge (I didn't do a full charge to avoid damaging the battery) It was awful; Montreal to Ottawa doesn't require a stop in a similar sized gas car, but I had to stop twice to keep the car charged (after leaving with a 90% charge, in the chill accel mode). Going to Mt. Tremblant from Montreal was a similar experience; charged it from 60 to 90%ish at St. Jerome and seeing the battery dip to the 50s by the time I arrived. The Ioniq, by contrast, was great (albeit new). I hesitate to directly compare as the Ioniq was used for city driving, but the range was always clear and in the 400-500km range. My assumption is that the Model X had its battery abused, but the rental agency's rep told me that all Teslas vastly over exaggerate their range; apparently they only get 150km in winter. I can see the value of a 150km electric car, but not for more than $100k.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > all Teslas vastly over exaggerate their range but it is EPA who is testing it?
  - zardo 3y ago
    The EPA just sets a test methodology. Though they can do confirmation testing.
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      yes, and internet says EPA tested it and already asked Tesla to drop number by 3-5% in the past before range disclosure, so it sounds like current numbers are confirmed by EPA: EPA data obtained by Reuters through the Freedom of Information Act showed that the audits resulted in Tesla being required to lower all the cars’ estimated ranges by an average of 3%. The projected range for one vehicle, the 2021 Model Y Long Range AWD (all-wheel drive), dropped by 5.15%. The EPA said all the changes to Tesla’s range estimates were made before the company used the figures on window stickers.
  - Zigurd 3y ago
    Based on news accounts I have seen Tesla does their own range testing but the methodology is examined and approved by the EPA.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  Not sure what the ambient temperature was during that time, but that doesn't surprise me. Also, a 2 week difference could be a temp delta, which matters substanially for range. Add in city vs highway, and yeah that all checks out. I'm assuming for a rental you probably got a 75D if it was made in 2017. Factory new, it had a range of 238mi EPA (383km). Assuming even 10% degradation (which is probably high, honestly) and only charging to 90%, that would give you 310km EPA. I'm guessing you wouldn't drive it all the way to 0 either, so you're really looking at 292km (if you leave 5% at the bottom). Then add on winter driving at highway speeds that will indeed reduce range by as much as 30% (or even 50%, if it's truly frigid) and that isn't surprising at all. The Ioniq being driven in city mostly will vastly, vastly increase range. And modern cars (model X included) have heat pumps, which improves winter range substanially. The 2017 X would have purely resistive heating, which really hurts range in the winter. This isn't unique to Tesla, by the way. F150 lightning owners have gotten pretty annoyed that the range is garbage during winter or during towing. Even the most efficient EV will struggle to get even 70% rated range with -20C or equivalent.
  - jbm 3y ago
    I think I left out important context here. I rented both for a week during July. The weather was worse during the Hyundai rental; it was in the 30s with high humidity, while the Model X struggled in the mid 20s. The range I quoted was from the app in the car itself, and borne out by real world experience. I can upload the screen if you'd like, or you can take my word; two supercharges from 20 -> 90 were needed to go from Montreal's south shore to Ottawa, using the highway 30. This was more than an hour of waiting the second time around, in an empty parking lot. Even as an SUV, it was a disappointing experience. My luggage fit easily into the Hyundai, it was impossible to put more than a stroller into the X. Imagine having a family car with child seat hooks — and barely enough space for a one-person stoller. My Timescar small car rentals in Tokyo were way better To get it out of the way, I don't have Elon Derangement Disorder, and have no feelings towards him, positive or negative. I like Tesla, regardless of anything, because they pushed the ball forward on electric cars. My friend's Model Y does not have the issues I outlined. However, based on my experience, the X is a low-range impractical car and unusable for large families, even in summer. I wouldn't trade my used gas-only 2016 Sienna for a free new one, despite it being 6 times the price. On the other hand, the Ioniq held its range, and had great storage capacity. I'd buy it on sight — but it only seats 5. Electrification in my household will have to wait sadly.
- Zigurd 3y ago
  I do not doubt your account of the two cars, but Tesla's alleged trick is to have range reported differently when above and below a certain charge level. If Hyundai is playing similar shenanigans, you would not have observed it in city driving in a short amount of time. Not that there is any reason to think anyone other than Tesla does this, especially if Hyundai uses EPA range estimates.
  - jbm 3y ago
    Yes this is definitely true. I did get the Hyundai battery down to 40 or 50% (when there was a > 1 day power failure, and I didn't trickle charge the day before; https://montreal.citynews.ca/2023/07/15/quebec-without-power-severe-storm/ https://montreal.citynews.ca/2023/07/15/quebec-without-power...). I didn't remember being particularly surprised by any changes in the estimated range. I didn't take it further than the South Shore to Laval, so obviously there might have been problems that I am unaware of when taking it to Ottawa. It also did not have Autopilot, nor could I easily figure out how to set up the adaptive cruise control. It wasn't a perfect car, but I never felt any range anxiety driving it.
damnesian 3y ago
Well, that's two embarrassing headlines for Musk today, and for both he plays the role of huckster.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Definitely not cool behavior but isn't material to the business. Tesla will keep selling units (more than Toyota in California as of this comment [1]), and any legal outcome will be a slap on the wrist with a small (relatively) settlement funded out of ~$23B in cash reserves on hand. [1] https://cleanenergyrevolution.co/2023/07/26/teslas-california-sales-surpass-toyotas/ https://cleanenergyrevolution.co/2023/07/26/teslas-californi...
  - avgDev 3y ago
    Tesla is currently being subsidized by the feds and doesn't California have additional rebates on EVs? If one could get $7500 on a hybrid or just a regular car, Tesla would not be doing so great.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Any EV manufacturer is subsidized, due to attempts to mitigate climate change and combustion pollutants (smog and whatnot, which is important to geographies like California).
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - natch 3y ago
      All car manufacturers are subsidized especially gas car manufacturers who do not pay the costs of the relatively larger environmental damage they create. A Tesla without any rebate / tax credit still has cheaper TCO than a gas car costing $10,000 to $15,000 less, but many people don’t get this yet so they think these rebates are needed to keep Tesla in business. They’re not.
  - 3y ago

26 points by gsibble 3y ago

jbm 3y ago

I rented a Hyundai Ioniq5 and them a Model X while visiting family on two separate visits, two weeks apart. The Model X was a 2017 model, but I cannot believe the level of deterioration on the battery. I was barely able to do 200 km on a 90% charge (I didn't do a full charge to avoid damaging the battery) It was awful; Montreal to Ottawa doesn't require a stop in a similar sized gas car, but I had to stop twice to keep the car charged (after leaving with a 90% charge, in the chill accel mode). Going to Mt. Tremblant from Montreal was a similar experience; charged it from 60 to 90%ish at St. Jerome and seeing the battery dip to the 50s by the time I arrived. The Ioniq, by contrast, was great (albeit new). I hesitate to directly compare as the Ioniq was used for city driving, but the range was always clear and in the 400-500km range. My assumption is that the Model X had its battery abused, but the rental agency's rep told me that all Teslas vastly over exaggerate their range; apparently they only get 150km in winter. I can see the value of a 150km electric car, but not for more than $100k.

riku_iki 3y ago
> all Teslas vastly over exaggerate their range but it is EPA who is testing it?
- zardo 3y ago
  The EPA just sets a test methodology. Though they can do confirmation testing.
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    yes, and internet says EPA tested it and already asked Tesla to drop number by 3-5% in the past before range disclosure, so it sounds like current numbers are confirmed by EPA: EPA data obtained by Reuters through the Freedom of Information Act showed that the audits resulted in Tesla being required to lower all the cars’ estimated ranges by an average of 3%. The projected range for one vehicle, the 2021 Model Y Long Range AWD (all-wheel drive), dropped by 5.15%. The EPA said all the changes to Tesla’s range estimates were made before the company used the figures on window stickers.
- Zigurd 3y ago
  Based on news accounts I have seen Tesla does their own range testing but the methodology is examined and approved by the EPA.
Kirby64 3y ago
Not sure what the ambient temperature was during that time, but that doesn't surprise me. Also, a 2 week difference could be a temp delta, which matters substanially for range. Add in city vs highway, and yeah that all checks out. I'm assuming for a rental you probably got a 75D if it was made in 2017. Factory new, it had a range of 238mi EPA (383km). Assuming even 10% degradation (which is probably high, honestly) and only charging to 90%, that would give you 310km EPA. I'm guessing you wouldn't drive it all the way to 0 either, so you're really looking at 292km (if you leave 5% at the bottom). Then add on winter driving at highway speeds that will indeed reduce range by as much as 30% (or even 50%, if it's truly frigid) and that isn't surprising at all. The Ioniq being driven in city mostly will vastly, vastly increase range. And modern cars (model X included) have heat pumps, which improves winter range substanially. The 2017 X would have purely resistive heating, which really hurts range in the winter. This isn't unique to Tesla, by the way. F150 lightning owners have gotten pretty annoyed that the range is garbage during winter or during towing. Even the most efficient EV will struggle to get even 70% rated range with -20C or equivalent.
- jbm 3y ago
  I think I left out important context here. I rented both for a week during July. The weather was worse during the Hyundai rental; it was in the 30s with high humidity, while the Model X struggled in the mid 20s. The range I quoted was from the app in the car itself, and borne out by real world experience. I can upload the screen if you'd like, or you can take my word; two supercharges from 20 -> 90 were needed to go from Montreal's south shore to Ottawa, using the highway 30. This was more than an hour of waiting the second time around, in an empty parking lot. Even as an SUV, it was a disappointing experience. My luggage fit easily into the Hyundai, it was impossible to put more than a stroller into the X. Imagine having a family car with child seat hooks — and barely enough space for a one-person stoller. My Timescar small car rentals in Tokyo were way better To get it out of the way, I don't have Elon Derangement Disorder, and have no feelings towards him, positive or negative. I like Tesla, regardless of anything, because they pushed the ball forward on electric cars. My friend's Model Y does not have the issues I outlined. However, based on my experience, the X is a low-range impractical car and unusable for large families, even in summer. I wouldn't trade my used gas-only 2016 Sienna for a free new one, despite it being 6 times the price. On the other hand, the Ioniq held its range, and had great storage capacity. I'd buy it on sight — but it only seats 5. Electrification in my household will have to wait sadly.
Zigurd 3y ago
I do not doubt your account of the two cars, but Tesla's alleged trick is to have range reported differently when above and below a certain charge level. If Hyundai is playing similar shenanigans, you would not have observed it in city driving in a short amount of time. Not that there is any reason to think anyone other than Tesla does this, especially if Hyundai uses EPA range estimates.
- jbm 3y ago
  Yes this is definitely true. I did get the Hyundai battery down to 40 or 50% (when there was a > 1 day power failure, and I didn't trickle charge the day before; https://montreal.citynews.ca/2023/07/15/quebec-without-power-severe-storm/ https://montreal.citynews.ca/2023/07/15/quebec-without-power...). I didn't remember being particularly surprised by any changes in the estimated range. I didn't take it further than the South Shore to Laval, so obviously there might have been problems that I am unaware of when taking it to Ottawa. It also did not have Autopilot, nor could I easily figure out how to set up the adaptive cruise control. It wasn't a perfect car, but I never felt any range anxiety driving it.

damnesian 3y ago

Well, that's two embarrassing headlines for Musk today, and for both he plays the role of huckster.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Definitely not cool behavior but isn't material to the business. Tesla will keep selling units (more than Toyota in California as of this comment [1]), and any legal outcome will be a slap on the wrist with a small (relatively) settlement funded out of ~$23B in cash reserves on hand. [1] https://cleanenergyrevolution.co/2023/07/26/teslas-california-sales-surpass-toyotas/ https://cleanenergyrevolution.co/2023/07/26/teslas-californi...
- avgDev 3y ago
  Tesla is currently being subsidized by the feds and doesn't California have additional rebates on EVs? If one could get $7500 on a hybrid or just a regular car, Tesla would not be doing so great.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Any EV manufacturer is subsidized, due to attempts to mitigate climate change and combustion pollutants (smog and whatnot, which is important to geographies like California).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - natch 3y ago
    All car manufacturers are subsidized especially gas car manufacturers who do not pay the costs of the relatively larger environmental damage they create. A Tesla without any rebate / tax credit still has cheaper TCO than a gas car costing $10,000 to $15,000 less, but many people don’t get this yet so they think these rebates are needed to keep Tesla in business. They’re not.
- 3y ago