4 ms·

Not that this is really the core of your point at all - but I believe the state of the science currently suggests that pheromones in humans are a myth at worst,

Not that this is really the core of your point at all - but I believe the state of the science currently suggests that pheromones in humans are a myth at worst, at best unproven. We only have a vestigial vomeronasal organ, which no longer functions - as I've understood it: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160509-the-tantalising-truth-about-sex-pheromones https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160509-the-tantalising-...

omniglottal 3y ago
How much is this like the "vestigal <appendix> which no longer functions" according to decades of scientific consensus until people discovered the gut microbiome?
malaya_zemlya 3y ago
Do you think it's a coincidence that almost every perfume uses some pheromone-like ingredients? Musk and civet are the most famous examples but also see hedione, a major ingredient in perfumes since the 1960s, because it enhances pretty much any floral smell. Hedione seems to directly stimulate the vomeronasal organ (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031938421001505 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003193842...). There's also the case of sandalwood, a perfume ingredient since antiquity. It just happens to smell almost like androstenol, an androgen believed to act as a pheromone, even though it's not really chemically related. PS, fwiw my wife sometimes tells me she married me because of how I smell like. Apparenlty I smell like violets to her.
- scns 3y ago
  Another one would be a very popular taste/smell: Vanilla, chemically close to human pheromones as well. Never used perfume, but my Ex loved my smell too.
scns 3y ago
Well, do you know the experiment where women were asked to smell shirts worn by men overnight? When they were ready to conceive they liked the smell of male sweat, otherwise they'd say it stinks. When women get off the pill to have children, it happens that they don't like their partners smell anymore. [edit] Seems i expressed myself badly in my original comment. It quite possibly is my central point and i feel sorry for scientists believing this. I fear they have an antisexual religious upbringing like i had. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ?wprov=sfla1 Why should the organ which tasked to find a mate, to have healthy children with, not work in us anymore? It can be damaged in people having their nose done, it gets broken in the process.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > Why should the organ which tasked to find a mate, to have healthy children with, not work in us anymore? I can't member where I read this, but I have read that the human sense of smell stopped being hugely important for food when we developed three colour vision. It's conceivable that vision enhancements also gave us a different path to mate-finding than smell; if so, the smell genes can randomise without much risk to reproductive success.
scns 3y ago
Thanks for the article! > The question is, can we do the same for humans? It seems highly unlikely. “In humans it would be pretty much impossible to do the classic isolation of a pheromone,” says Hurst. Sounds like saying "i have no clue how to do it" and protecting the ego to me, could be wrong though. Pheromone perfume feels like a scam to me. If they work, and a male succeded in having sex, she might notice she does not like his real smell later, that she got tricked. Pheromone parties sound like a great idea to me!

omniglottal 3y ago

How much is this like the "vestigal <appendix> which no longer functions" according to decades of scientific consensus until people discovered the gut microbiome?

malaya_zemlya 3y ago

Do you think it's a coincidence that almost every perfume uses some pheromone-like ingredients? Musk and civet are the most famous examples but also see hedione, a major ingredient in perfumes since the 1960s, because it enhances pretty much any floral smell. Hedione seems to directly stimulate the vomeronasal organ (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031938421001505 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003193842...). There's also the case of sandalwood, a perfume ingredient since antiquity. It just happens to smell almost like androstenol, an androgen believed to act as a pheromone, even though it's not really chemically related. PS, fwiw my wife sometimes tells me she married me because of how I smell like. Apparenlty I smell like violets to her.

scns 3y ago
Another one would be a very popular taste/smell: Vanilla, chemically close to human pheromones as well. Never used perfume, but my Ex loved my smell too.

scns 3y ago

Well, do you know the experiment where women were asked to smell shirts worn by men overnight? When they were ready to conceive they liked the smell of male sweat, otherwise they'd say it stinks. When women get off the pill to have children, it happens that they don't like their partners smell anymore. [edit] Seems i expressed myself badly in my original comment. It quite possibly is my central point and i feel sorry for scientists believing this. I fear they have an antisexual religious upbringing like i had. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ?wprov=sfla1 Why should the organ which tasked to find a mate, to have healthy children with, not work in us anymore? It can be damaged in people having their nose done, it gets broken in the process.

ben_w 3y ago
> Why should the organ which tasked to find a mate, to have healthy children with, not work in us anymore? I can't member where I read this, but I have read that the human sense of smell stopped being hugely important for food when we developed three colour vision. It's conceivable that vision enhancements also gave us a different path to mate-finding than smell; if so, the smell genes can randomise without much risk to reproductive success.

scns 3y ago

Thanks for the article! > The question is, can we do the same for humans? It seems highly unlikely. “In humans it would be pretty much impossible to do the classic isolation of a pheromone,” says Hurst. Sounds like saying "i have no clue how to do it" and protecting the ego to me, could be wrong though. Pheromone perfume feels like a scam to me. If they work, and a male succeded in having sex, she might notice she does not like his real smell later, that she got tricked. Pheromone parties sound like a great idea to me!