3 ms·

That includes polygamy of course, right? I mean, if all people involved are competent, consenting adults, why wouldn't that be a civil right? Do you agree? Or i

by p-e-w 3y ago

That includes polygamy of course, right? I mean, if all people involved are competent, consenting adults, why wouldn't that be a civil right? Do you agree? Or is that one of those "Let me in, then close the door" type of issues?

TylerE 3y ago
Polygamy is a tough one because historically it has been strongly associated with certain fringe sects that are heavily male dominated, and the women are treated more like household servants than wives. Old school “it isn’t rape if we’re married” types. The women aren’t allow jobs, divorce, or personal finances. Actual, honest to goodness, full-freedom and consent polygamy I personally have zero issue with. Live and let live, as long as you aren’t tell me how to live MY life.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  So marriage is a civil right, except when people have a gut feeling that it's problematic and throw around "think of the X!" moral panic tantrums. This attitude seems to define civil rights today, from drug prohibition to sexual liberty. Ironically, it very closely resembles how conservative moralism operates and has always operated.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Not at all what I said. I’m done with your bad faith. Good day. It’s hardly a gut feeling, it’s extremely well documented. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/07/arizona-polygamous-cult-leader-child-abuse-samuel-bateman https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/07/arizona-poly... https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2018/04/10/commentary-lds-history-of-polygamy-still-used-to-victimize-women/ https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2018/04/10/comment... https://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-sect12may12-story.html https://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-sect12may12-story.html https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-member-of-polygamist-sect-moms-aided-warren-jeffs-abuse/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-member-of-polygamist-sect-mo... https://peacefulsocieties.uncg.edu/2011/03/17/polygamist-mormons-and-amish-share-experiences-of-abuse/ https://peacefulsocieties.uncg.edu/2011/03/17/polygamist-mor...
woodruffw 3y ago
I'll reframe this for you: in a liberal society, we default to open social policies rather than closed ones. There's no moral or principled legal basis for the civil right of marriage being extended to only straight couples. Restricting polygamy does have a principled legal basis: it's historically associated with subjugation, and you don't have a civil right to subjugate others. If and when that association vanishes (i.e., society is convinced that all parties are able to competently consent), then there will be no legal basis for excluding them from the civil right of marriage. Your "ick" response is not a valid basis.

by p-e-w 3y ago

TylerE 3y ago

Polygamy is a tough one because historically it has been strongly associated with certain fringe sects that are heavily male dominated, and the women are treated more like household servants than wives. Old school “it isn’t rape if we’re married” types. The women aren’t allow jobs, divorce, or personal finances. Actual, honest to goodness, full-freedom and consent polygamy I personally have zero issue with. Live and let live, as long as you aren’t tell me how to live MY life.

p-e-w 3y ago
So marriage is a civil right, except when people have a gut feeling that it's problematic and throw around "think of the X!" moral panic tantrums. This attitude seems to define civil rights today, from drug prohibition to sexual liberty. Ironically, it very closely resembles how conservative moralism operates and has always operated.
- TylerE 3y ago
  Not at all what I said. I’m done with your bad faith. Good day. It’s hardly a gut feeling, it’s extremely well documented. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/07/arizona-polygamous-cult-leader-child-abuse-samuel-bateman https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/07/arizona-poly... https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2018/04/10/commentary-lds-history-of-polygamy-still-used-to-victimize-women/ https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2018/04/10/comment... https://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-sect12may12-story.html https://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-sect12may12-story.html https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-member-of-polygamist-sect-moms-aided-warren-jeffs-abuse/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-member-of-polygamist-sect-mo... https://peacefulsocieties.uncg.edu/2011/03/17/polygamist-mormons-and-amish-share-experiences-of-abuse/ https://peacefulsocieties.uncg.edu/2011/03/17/polygamist-mor...

woodruffw 3y ago

I'll reframe this for you: in a liberal society, we default to open social policies rather than closed ones. There's no moral or principled legal basis for the civil right of marriage being extended to only straight couples. Restricting polygamy does have a principled legal basis: it's historically associated with subjugation, and you don't have a civil right to subjugate others. If and when that association vanishes (i.e., society is convinced that all parties are able to competently consent), then there will be no legal basis for excluding them from the civil right of marriage. Your "ick" response is not a valid basis.