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You don't think attractiveness plays a role at all? Like, doesn't even make your list? Your list is the kind of thing an attractive (or at least, not hideously

You don't think attractiveness plays a role at all? Like, doesn't even make your list? Your list is the kind of thing an attractive (or at least, not hideously unattractive) person would say while being completely oblivious to the issues a good chunk of the population face.

hef19898 3y ago
Attractiveness is a) subjective and b) nothing one can influence (unless you talk about hardcore surgery). My points are those people have a lot more agency over.
- ninkendo 3y ago
  Sure, those points people have agency over. But the error in reasoning happens when you say those points add up to “Finding a partner isn't actually that hard”. You’re forgetting that there are things people have no agency over, which makes finding a partner very hard indeed.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    No, it actually is not. It really isn't. If you aim for either Margot Robbie or Ryan Gossling you are making it harder yourself. Most Incels so maybe celibate, but it is, considering how they see and treat women to how they see the world and society, totally voluntarily and self inflicted. Also, whining about how hard your life is, how you are not able to achieve your goals because of things outside of your control is a huge turn off, regardless of how your face or body looks like.
    - harimau777 3y ago
      Just because something isn't difficult for you doesn't mean it isn't extraordinarily difficult for others. If someone's neurodivergent, was raised in a sheltered environment, or just isn't good at social interaction, then that can often be a nearly insurmountable barrier.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Easy isn't the same thing as not hard. Not being an ass shouldn't be that hard, finding a fulfilling relationship so is not easy. And no, it is not easy for me neither, if it wasn't for my now wife when we first met, we wouldn't be together now, forst steps and all that crap. The we didn't beak up so, well, that is on both of us. People tend to over complicate the first step thing so. Just be reepsectful and nice, accept a no, and a date will ultimately follow. Because the opposite sex wants a date, maybe not with you but still, as well. Just don't spray and pray, that approach doesn't work with job applications, it worls even less with dating.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  Attractiveness is definitely possible to influence. Consider the attractiveness of getting in shape, or a positive or interesting disposition.
- volkl48 3y ago
  A - Sure, there's no totally objective truth. There's societies on the planet where being as heavy as possible is/was thought to be attractive, or being covered in facial tattoos, or whatever else. However, the basics of what is physically attractive within the society you live are likely straightforward enough that if your likeness is posed to 100 others, you'd get a pretty closely clustered set of ratings. If your interests trend towards a particular subgroup/subculture you may wish to further optimize for what's generally more attractive to that group. B - That seems obviously wrong? Physique, grooming, clothing, etc - virtually no one is at the upper bounds of what they can do in these kinds of areas and they have a massive effect on how physically attractive someone is viewed to be. Sure, that doesn't mean that everyone can become the most attractive person on the planet that way....but they absolutely have the agency to influence how attractive they are to others, significantly.
vxNsr 3y ago
My wife told me straight out, she wasn't attracted to me when we first met, but after spending some time with me, she became attracted to me on an emotional level and the physical attraction apparently followed, I can say the same for her, she was definitely classically attractive, but the more time I spent with her, the more attractive she became. Before I met my wife I knew a different woman while we were in college, she wasn't classically attractive, and wasn't attractive to me, but we spent lots of time in the same social circles, and over time grew emotionally close, she apparently had been attracted to me the whole time, but I only started to see her as beautiful after over a year, we didn't end up exploring any of that for other reasons (and bullet dodged apparently because she started to go down a very damaging ideological path) but I could have seen that relationship blossoming into something much closer and it involved two people who most wouldn't consider attractive. beauty is definitely in the eyes of the beholder and claiming there is objective beauty is setting yourself up for failure. Above all else, if you really want to live a better life, stop spending all day obsessing over people who have a bunch of physical attributes that society is telling you are desirable. Especially, if you rarely see people like that in real life. This includes, movies, tiktok, insta, and obviously, though possibly the hardest to cut, porn. All those give you a warped sense of what normal is and give you expectations that you will never actualize.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
I put it under "accept yourself". If you don't find yourself attractive, that will impact your ability to find attractiveness in others. Be it due to insecurity or bitterness. I think one aspect is that we mix charisma with attractiveness. They correlate, but looking like a movie star is not the only way to have charisma. Simply the easiest. Yes, the easiest, compared to being funny, having interesting life stories, or being wildly successful. You can dedicate 2 years to looking attractive with consistent results. You can't dedicate 2 years and guarantee you make tons of money or that you can tell some good jokes. Either way, if you don't accept yourself, change yourself to a way where you can. As RuPaul says: >If you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you gonna love somebody else?

hef19898 3y ago

Attractiveness is a) subjective and b) nothing one can influence (unless you talk about hardcore surgery). My points are those people have a lot more agency over.

ninkendo 3y ago
Sure, those points people have agency over. But the error in reasoning happens when you say those points add up to “Finding a partner isn't actually that hard”. You’re forgetting that there are things people have no agency over, which makes finding a partner very hard indeed.
- hef19898 3y ago
  No, it actually is not. It really isn't. If you aim for either Margot Robbie or Ryan Gossling you are making it harder yourself. Most Incels so maybe celibate, but it is, considering how they see and treat women to how they see the world and society, totally voluntarily and self inflicted. Also, whining about how hard your life is, how you are not able to achieve your goals because of things outside of your control is a huge turn off, regardless of how your face or body looks like.
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Just because something isn't difficult for you doesn't mean it isn't extraordinarily difficult for others. If someone's neurodivergent, was raised in a sheltered environment, or just isn't good at social interaction, then that can often be a nearly insurmountable barrier.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Easy isn't the same thing as not hard. Not being an ass shouldn't be that hard, finding a fulfilling relationship so is not easy. And no, it is not easy for me neither, if it wasn't for my now wife when we first met, we wouldn't be together now, forst steps and all that crap. The we didn't beak up so, well, that is on both of us. People tend to over complicate the first step thing so. Just be reepsectful and nice, accept a no, and a date will ultimately follow. Because the opposite sex wants a date, maybe not with you but still, as well. Just don't spray and pray, that approach doesn't work with job applications, it worls even less with dating.
DiggyJohnson 3y ago
Attractiveness is definitely possible to influence. Consider the attractiveness of getting in shape, or a positive or interesting disposition.
volkl48 3y ago
A - Sure, there's no totally objective truth. There's societies on the planet where being as heavy as possible is/was thought to be attractive, or being covered in facial tattoos, or whatever else. However, the basics of what is physically attractive within the society you live are likely straightforward enough that if your likeness is posed to 100 others, you'd get a pretty closely clustered set of ratings. If your interests trend towards a particular subgroup/subculture you may wish to further optimize for what's generally more attractive to that group. B - That seems obviously wrong? Physique, grooming, clothing, etc - virtually no one is at the upper bounds of what they can do in these kinds of areas and they have a massive effect on how physically attractive someone is viewed to be. Sure, that doesn't mean that everyone can become the most attractive person on the planet that way....but they absolutely have the agency to influence how attractive they are to others, significantly.

vxNsr 3y ago

My wife told me straight out, she wasn't attracted to me when we first met, but after spending some time with me, she became attracted to me on an emotional level and the physical attraction apparently followed, I can say the same for her, she was definitely classically attractive, but the more time I spent with her, the more attractive she became. Before I met my wife I knew a different woman while we were in college, she wasn't classically attractive, and wasn't attractive to me, but we spent lots of time in the same social circles, and over time grew emotionally close, she apparently had been attracted to me the whole time, but I only started to see her as beautiful after over a year, we didn't end up exploring any of that for other reasons (and bullet dodged apparently because she started to go down a very damaging ideological path) but I could have seen that relationship blossoming into something much closer and it involved two people who most wouldn't consider attractive. beauty is definitely in the eyes of the beholder and claiming there is objective beauty is setting yourself up for failure. Above all else, if you really want to live a better life, stop spending all day obsessing over people who have a bunch of physical attributes that society is telling you are desirable. Especially, if you rarely see people like that in real life. This includes, movies, tiktok, insta, and obviously, though possibly the hardest to cut, porn. All those give you a warped sense of what normal is and give you expectations that you will never actualize.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

I put it under "accept yourself". If you don't find yourself attractive, that will impact your ability to find attractiveness in others. Be it due to insecurity or bitterness. I think one aspect is that we mix charisma with attractiveness. They correlate, but looking like a movie star is not the only way to have charisma. Simply the easiest. Yes, the easiest, compared to being funny, having interesting life stories, or being wildly successful. You can dedicate 2 years to looking attractive with consistent results. You can't dedicate 2 years and guarantee you make tons of money or that you can tell some good jokes. Either way, if you don't accept yourself, change yourself to a way where you can. As RuPaul says: >If you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you gonna love somebody else?