4 ms·

Cory Doctorow is the king of cringe and always has been, which makes it super hard to take his thinking seriously despite the many times he's been right. But m

by 23B1 3y ago

Cory Doctorow is the king of cringe and always has been, which makes it super hard to take his thinking seriously despite the many times he's been right. But maybe it requires people who are that shrill and eyeroll-inducing to change things?

krapp 3y ago
The premise that using this tryhard meme word will actually change things is silly. All it will do is make these conversations frustratingly annoying until the meme falls out of favor.
- VerminOctopus1 3y ago
  “tryhard meme word”? Really?
  - krapp 3y ago
    Yes. It's a meme created by a fringe nerd blogger, primarily taken up by nerds on the internet, that no one else cares about. It's not a scientific term, legal term or term of art, nor is it needed to describe some novel process. It's just a buzzword people like to use because it contains the word "shit."
jzb 3y ago
Cory is kind of the Jello Biafra[1] of technology. If you go back and listen to some of Jello's older spoken word albums... damn. The guy is right, a lot. Also extreme and definitely not for mainstream audiences -- which is unfortunate because those audiences really need to hear his message. But it's delivered in a way that is wholly unpalatable to anybody who's not already close to his thinking. [1] Former lead singer of the Dead Kennedys, continues to dabble in music with various bands / backing bands and has a YouTube series called "What Would Jello Do?" Also did a lot of spoken word shows but may have cut back on that in the COVID era.
- jzb 3y ago
  In case this is unclear: This is not an insult in any way. I have a lot of respect for Cory and Jello. They are, however, only for certain audiences and rely a lot on shock value and stylings that go over well with those audiences and work against them with others.
  - 23B1 3y ago
    Oh I think the role of the 'jester' is super-important; humor (and music!) is an incredible carrier medium for cultural commentary. And I hate tone policing. I just think Cory Doctorow should grow the hell up. I've been reading his stuff for like, what, almost two decades now(!). Edgelords were fun up through the mid-2000s and then the rest of us grew up, realized shock value was for teenage boys, and learned to prefer well-constructed and thoughtful arguments over angst and vitriol.
    - vintagedave 3y ago
      What poorly constructed and non-thoughtful arguments does he make? His site pluralistic has lots of interesting long-form-twitter essays. https://pluralistic.net/2023/08/02/self-incrimination/#wei-bai-bai https://pluralistic.net/2023/08/02/self-incrimination/#wei-b... is one I'm reading now. It's clearly, bluntly stated (good, makes it hard to avoid) and cites lots of examples. He doesn't seem to go for shock value (to me.) That said, the term 'enshittification' is not shocking to me because of the swearword; I think we're all used to calling things BS, for example. I don't use terms like that at work, or at home, but that's personal taste in communication; it's not shocking and sometimes they are the most accurate and succinct terms.
      - 23B1 3y ago
        I'm not going to re-litigate every single one of Doctorow's many good and awful arguments. What I can say is that I can't say "enshittification" on a quarterly earnings call – y'know, to audiences with the power and authority to affect actual change.
helpfulmandrill 3y ago
I mean, if someone has been right multiple times maybe you should take them seriously despite them not being cool enough for you in some sort of nebulous way...
- hgsgm 3y ago
  If you're right, and you want the world to understand, why make them fight to get there?
  - helpfulmandrill 3y ago
    Fine, what would making these points in a more palatable way look like, exactly?
    - 23B1 3y ago
      Simply examine at the thinkers who do make headway with their ideas, and emulate their methodologies.
      - spicymapotofu 3y ago
        Prescribing to copy those who succeed is an answer without substance in the question of how to succeed.
        23B1 3y ago
        Stupid questions get stupid answers.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      Literally just not gratuitiously using a swear word in the central concept you're trying to spread. That's the biggest first step, which alone would accomplish a lot. That's the whole point of the root comment.
      - 3y ago
datavirtue 3y ago
Yes, for every gaggle of engineers you have to have someone who talks too much without saying much to keep people talking.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>But maybe it requires people who are that shrill and eyeroll-inducing to change things? if we're still relying on social media like Reddit and Twitter to spread the word organically, perhaps.

by 23B1 3y ago

krapp 3y ago

The premise that using this tryhard meme word will actually change things is silly. All it will do is make these conversations frustratingly annoying until the meme falls out of favor.

VerminOctopus1 3y ago
“tryhard meme word”? Really?
- krapp 3y ago
  Yes. It's a meme created by a fringe nerd blogger, primarily taken up by nerds on the internet, that no one else cares about. It's not a scientific term, legal term or term of art, nor is it needed to describe some novel process. It's just a buzzword people like to use because it contains the word "shit."

jzb 3y ago

Cory is kind of the Jello Biafra[1] of technology. If you go back and listen to some of Jello's older spoken word albums... damn. The guy is right, a lot. Also extreme and definitely not for mainstream audiences -- which is unfortunate because those audiences really need to hear his message. But it's delivered in a way that is wholly unpalatable to anybody who's not already close to his thinking. [1] Former lead singer of the Dead Kennedys, continues to dabble in music with various bands / backing bands and has a YouTube series called "What Would Jello Do?" Also did a lot of spoken word shows but may have cut back on that in the COVID era.

jzb 3y ago
In case this is unclear: This is not an insult in any way. I have a lot of respect for Cory and Jello. They are, however, only for certain audiences and rely a lot on shock value and stylings that go over well with those audiences and work against them with others.
- 23B1 3y ago
  Oh I think the role of the 'jester' is super-important; humor (and music!) is an incredible carrier medium for cultural commentary. And I hate tone policing. I just think Cory Doctorow should grow the hell up. I've been reading his stuff for like, what, almost two decades now(!). Edgelords were fun up through the mid-2000s and then the rest of us grew up, realized shock value was for teenage boys, and learned to prefer well-constructed and thoughtful arguments over angst and vitriol.
  - vintagedave 3y ago
    What poorly constructed and non-thoughtful arguments does he make? His site pluralistic has lots of interesting long-form-twitter essays. https://pluralistic.net/2023/08/02/self-incrimination/#wei-bai-bai https://pluralistic.net/2023/08/02/self-incrimination/#wei-b... is one I'm reading now. It's clearly, bluntly stated (good, makes it hard to avoid) and cites lots of examples. He doesn't seem to go for shock value (to me.) That said, the term 'enshittification' is not shocking to me because of the swearword; I think we're all used to calling things BS, for example. I don't use terms like that at work, or at home, but that's personal taste in communication; it's not shocking and sometimes they are the most accurate and succinct terms.
    - 23B1 3y ago
      I'm not going to re-litigate every single one of Doctorow's many good and awful arguments. What I can say is that I can't say "enshittification" on a quarterly earnings call – y'know, to audiences with the power and authority to affect actual change.

helpfulmandrill 3y ago

I mean, if someone has been right multiple times maybe you should take them seriously despite them not being cool enough for you in some sort of nebulous way...

hgsgm 3y ago
If you're right, and you want the world to understand, why make them fight to get there?
- helpfulmandrill 3y ago
  Fine, what would making these points in a more palatable way look like, exactly?
  - 23B1 3y ago
    Simply examine at the thinkers who do make headway with their ideas, and emulate their methodologies.
    - spicymapotofu 3y ago
      Prescribing to copy those who succeed is an answer without substance in the question of how to succeed.
      - 23B1 3y ago
        Stupid questions get stupid answers.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Literally just not gratuitiously using a swear word in the central concept you're trying to spread. That's the biggest first step, which alone would accomplish a lot. That's the whole point of the root comment.
    - 3y ago

datavirtue 3y ago

Yes, for every gaggle of engineers you have to have someone who talks too much without saying much to keep people talking.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

>But maybe it requires people who are that shrill and eyeroll-inducing to change things? if we're still relying on social media like Reddit and Twitter to spread the word organically, perhaps.