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Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. For many non tech savvy users if you give them a Linux laptop with any modern DE, they can't tell the dif

Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. For many non tech savvy users if you give them a Linux laptop with any modern DE, they can't tell the difference. But it seems these filters are almost always cherry picked against Linux for some reason I sincerely don't know.

Sporktacular 3y ago
"And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either." I don't see why. I really like macOS. More than any other environment it's uncluttered, well organised, it gets out of the way. It abstracts a lot of unnecessary technical detail but still allows diving into that, if I'm inclined. And most of all, I like well integrated system-wide features instead of palming it off to developers. Sure the hardware is good too, but I don't know where you get that idea from.
pjmlp 3y ago
They would, as soon as they try to use any software most people on their circle of friends use, CD/DVD coming on the hardware they bought at the mall, or any computer magazine besides Linux Format and similar.
- mmis1000 3y ago
  My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. And the only thing he use it for entertainment is browser (for reading novels) If I am managed to setup all these properly on other system. I doubt him would ever notice a difference. Non tech user just can't care about what system he is using less. All matter for him are tools that help him to finish his work. What about dvd/cd or install some new softwares? Well, I am the in house tech support.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    That is the thing, he only manages that thanks to the in house tech support, he would be lost without it.
  - darkwater 3y ago
    > My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. That was a majority use-case between 2005-2015. Now it's a niche case (yeah, even if absolute numbers are still big enough, relatively speaking it's a niche)
- arghwhat 3y ago
  Well, in 2023 a majority of that would be web or electron apps so they might not be able to tell the difference. They would be equally stumped at the sight of a CD/DVD no matter their choice of OS, as machines have not shipped with optical drives in ages.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Most normal people don't buy new software all the time, most of them like to keep their old copies going as much as possible. Most desktop computers still do, and in alternative there are USB stick variants. Which doesn't change the fact regarding what drivers, for what set of OSes, are supported out of the box.
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      Desktop computers are unusual nowadays, despite being a decent option. They are gone from non-gaming retail stores from what I can tell, so it's much more of an active decision to get. It is true that if you try to reuse your 2003 Office install you will fail, but such unsupported and deprecated software will also cause trouble on a modern PC. Even if it runs, using an old version of Outlook is extremely unsafe... Common end-user hardware does not require drivers nowadays either (not even printers due to IPPAnywhere and co., even though manufacturers still ship them for some reason). Things are always hairy outside that though - macOS no longer permit kernel extensions, and you know you are in a dark place if DKMS gets involved on Linux.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        macOS does not permit kernel extensions, because contrary to GNU/Linux they take ABI and kernel stability seriously, and are incrementally turning the OS into a proper microkernel, with all extensions running in userspace.
        kelnos 3y ago
        Do you have a source on Apple working to turn macOS into a proper microkernel? Couldn't find anything. Certainly Mach is a microkernel, but Darwin very much isn't. I do know that Apple has worked to expose some kernel-level hardware interfacing features in safer ways than giving full kernel extension access, but otherwise that's it?
pulvinar 3y ago
Except many if not most (at least in the past) chose a Mac for the software first and the hardware second. I know I did. And I’ve also been using desktop Linux begrudgingly beside it, ever since it existed. Windows too, though I’ve lately removed any need for that.
nullindividual 3y ago
> Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. I'm not sure what would make you an authoritative source on why people by Macs or where you're sourcing your thoroughly researched data, but I can tell you I purchased an MBA to run macOS and the software that runs on macOS. Or like the Intel N100 mini PC I purchased explicitly to run proxmox + OPNSense. Or like my Windows laptop to have a mobile lab. I pick the machine based on the software I want to run. I'm sure we can find one, perhaps if we stretch it, two other people on HN who also purchase machines based off of the OS/software they need to run.
- arghwhat 3y ago
  Many on HN might be intimately familiar with macOS internals, but we are not in any way or form the average users. Running OPNSense on Proxmox definitely sets the "outlier" sticky bit. Most users do not watch WWDC and do not know what OS release notes are. They don't know what the boundary between their web browser and their OS is, and macOS just becomes "the thing that nags them to update it" - a nag that users unfortunately still ignore, as evident by my recent confrontation with Big Sur machines.
  - nullindividual 3y ago
    Oh I completely agree with you that folks on HN are likely to be of a particular mindset when it comes to technology purchases. However, that doesn't mean that every non-HN user out there buys the aluminum-shell-in-the-vague-shape-of-a-laptop and doesn't make a conscious choice. My point still stands. The GP doesn't have the data to back up the assertion.
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      There is also no data to back up the opposite assertion. It would be rather surprising to see comments on HN based on hard statistical data - an implicit "IMO" prefix makes sense to apply in most human discussions. > That does not mean that every non-HN user... Not every - but I do believe it is still the majority. There are a lot of people out there, and the knowledge required to make the aforementioned OS choice is niche. This is not implying stupidity, just that there are many trades and interests out there, and subscribing to ours specifically is not a given.
ghaff 3y ago
But at that point then who gives a damn what the “desktop” or other market share is because it’s essentially meaningless and can be manipulated into whatever you want it to be. Add in the fact that a lot of what you run whether SaaS or even a shell is in a server somewhere else. The actual client operating system is increasingly about as relevant for a lot of use cases as what software your terminal ran a few decades ago.

Sporktacular 3y ago

"And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either." I don't see why. I really like macOS. More than any other environment it's uncluttered, well organised, it gets out of the way. It abstracts a lot of unnecessary technical detail but still allows diving into that, if I'm inclined. And most of all, I like well integrated system-wide features instead of palming it off to developers. Sure the hardware is good too, but I don't know where you get that idea from.

pjmlp 3y ago

They would, as soon as they try to use any software most people on their circle of friends use, CD/DVD coming on the hardware they bought at the mall, or any computer magazine besides Linux Format and similar.

mmis1000 3y ago
My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. And the only thing he use it for entertainment is browser (for reading novels) If I am managed to setup all these properly on other system. I doubt him would ever notice a difference. Non tech user just can't care about what system he is using less. All matter for him are tools that help him to finish his work. What about dvd/cd or install some new softwares? Well, I am the in house tech support.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  That is the thing, he only manages that thanks to the in house tech support, he would be lost without it.
- darkwater 3y ago
  > My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. That was a majority use-case between 2005-2015. Now it's a niche case (yeah, even if absolute numbers are still big enough, relatively speaking it's a niche)
arghwhat 3y ago
Well, in 2023 a majority of that would be web or electron apps so they might not be able to tell the difference. They would be equally stumped at the sight of a CD/DVD no matter their choice of OS, as machines have not shipped with optical drives in ages.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Most normal people don't buy new software all the time, most of them like to keep their old copies going as much as possible. Most desktop computers still do, and in alternative there are USB stick variants. Which doesn't change the fact regarding what drivers, for what set of OSes, are supported out of the box.
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    Desktop computers are unusual nowadays, despite being a decent option. They are gone from non-gaming retail stores from what I can tell, so it's much more of an active decision to get. It is true that if you try to reuse your 2003 Office install you will fail, but such unsupported and deprecated software will also cause trouble on a modern PC. Even if it runs, using an old version of Outlook is extremely unsafe... Common end-user hardware does not require drivers nowadays either (not even printers due to IPPAnywhere and co., even though manufacturers still ship them for some reason). Things are always hairy outside that though - macOS no longer permit kernel extensions, and you know you are in a dark place if DKMS gets involved on Linux.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      macOS does not permit kernel extensions, because contrary to GNU/Linux they take ABI and kernel stability seriously, and are incrementally turning the OS into a proper microkernel, with all extensions running in userspace.
      - kelnos 3y ago
        Do you have a source on Apple working to turn macOS into a proper microkernel? Couldn't find anything. Certainly Mach is a microkernel, but Darwin very much isn't. I do know that Apple has worked to expose some kernel-level hardware interfacing features in safer ways than giving full kernel extension access, but otherwise that's it?

pulvinar 3y ago

Except many if not most (at least in the past) chose a Mac for the software first and the hardware second. I know I did. And I’ve also been using desktop Linux begrudgingly beside it, ever since it existed. Windows too, though I’ve lately removed any need for that.

nullindividual 3y ago

> Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. I'm not sure what would make you an authoritative source on why people by Macs or where you're sourcing your thoroughly researched data, but I can tell you I purchased an MBA to run macOS and the software that runs on macOS. Or like the Intel N100 mini PC I purchased explicitly to run proxmox + OPNSense. Or like my Windows laptop to have a mobile lab. I pick the machine based on the software I want to run. I'm sure we can find one, perhaps if we stretch it, two other people on HN who also purchase machines based off of the OS/software they need to run.

arghwhat 3y ago
Many on HN might be intimately familiar with macOS internals, but we are not in any way or form the average users. Running OPNSense on Proxmox definitely sets the "outlier" sticky bit. Most users do not watch WWDC and do not know what OS release notes are. They don't know what the boundary between their web browser and their OS is, and macOS just becomes "the thing that nags them to update it" - a nag that users unfortunately still ignore, as evident by my recent confrontation with Big Sur machines.
- nullindividual 3y ago
  Oh I completely agree with you that folks on HN are likely to be of a particular mindset when it comes to technology purchases. However, that doesn't mean that every non-HN user out there buys the aluminum-shell-in-the-vague-shape-of-a-laptop and doesn't make a conscious choice. My point still stands. The GP doesn't have the data to back up the assertion.
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    There is also no data to back up the opposite assertion. It would be rather surprising to see comments on HN based on hard statistical data - an implicit "IMO" prefix makes sense to apply in most human discussions. > That does not mean that every non-HN user... Not every - but I do believe it is still the majority. There are a lot of people out there, and the knowledge required to make the aforementioned OS choice is niche. This is not implying stupidity, just that there are many trades and interests out there, and subscribing to ours specifically is not a given.

ghaff 3y ago

But at that point then who gives a damn what the “desktop” or other market share is because it’s essentially meaningless and can be manipulated into whatever you want it to be. Add in the fact that a lot of what you run whether SaaS or even a shell is in a server somewhere else. The actual client operating system is increasingly about as relevant for a lot of use cases as what software your terminal ran a few decades ago.