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At the same time, the majority of those running Windows have the same relationship to it as you have with Linux on your DSL modem - "It's what the computer I bo

At the same time, the majority of those running Windows have the same relationship to it as you have with Linux on your DSL modem - "It's what the computer I bought comes with" - and yet we are not discounting those Windows users. Same goes for macOS, especially now where Asahi Linux is the only and yet incomplete alternative. In some comparisons it makes sense to remove DSL modems from the equation and focusing on some more "computer-like" subset of device (otherwise no OS would ever do better than "several orders of magnitude fewer deployments than Linux"), but discounting every device where you did not actively pick the OS would make for an extremely biased comparison. Plus, we don't care about such distinctions outside comparisons. SteamOS have already driven significant improvements for regular desktop users. Same goes for Tizen, Android and ChromeOS. Even wonky DSL firmwares have positive effects for the rest of us. > GNU+Linux no.

Draiken 3y ago
Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. For many non tech savvy users if you give them a Linux laptop with any modern DE, they can't tell the difference. But it seems these filters are almost always cherry picked against Linux for some reason I sincerely don't know.
- Sporktacular 3y ago
  "And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either." I don't see why. I really like macOS. More than any other environment it's uncluttered, well organised, it gets out of the way. It abstracts a lot of unnecessary technical detail but still allows diving into that, if I'm inclined. And most of all, I like well integrated system-wide features instead of palming it off to developers. Sure the hardware is good too, but I don't know where you get that idea from.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  They would, as soon as they try to use any software most people on their circle of friends use, CD/DVD coming on the hardware they bought at the mall, or any computer magazine besides Linux Format and similar.
  - mmis1000 3y ago
    My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. And the only thing he use it for entertainment is browser (for reading novels) If I am managed to setup all these properly on other system. I doubt him would ever notice a difference. Non tech user just can't care about what system he is using less. All matter for him are tools that help him to finish his work. What about dvd/cd or install some new softwares? Well, I am the in house tech support.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      That is the thing, he only manages that thanks to the in house tech support, he would be lost without it.
    - darkwater 3y ago
      > My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. That was a majority use-case between 2005-2015. Now it's a niche case (yeah, even if absolute numbers are still big enough, relatively speaking it's a niche)
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    Well, in 2023 a majority of that would be web or electron apps so they might not be able to tell the difference. They would be equally stumped at the sight of a CD/DVD no matter their choice of OS, as machines have not shipped with optical drives in ages.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Most normal people don't buy new software all the time, most of them like to keep their old copies going as much as possible. Most desktop computers still do, and in alternative there are USB stick variants. Which doesn't change the fact regarding what drivers, for what set of OSes, are supported out of the box.
      - 3y ago
- pulvinar 3y ago
  Except many if not most (at least in the past) chose a Mac for the software first and the hardware second. I know I did. And I’ve also been using desktop Linux begrudgingly beside it, ever since it existed. Windows too, though I’ve lately removed any need for that.
- nullindividual 3y ago
  > Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. I'm not sure what would make you an authoritative source on why people by Macs or where you're sourcing your thoroughly researched data, but I can tell you I purchased an MBA to run macOS and the software that runs on macOS. Or like the Intel N100 mini PC I purchased explicitly to run proxmox + OPNSense. Or like my Windows laptop to have a mobile lab. I pick the machine based on the software I want to run. I'm sure we can find one, perhaps if we stretch it, two other people on HN who also purchase machines based off of the OS/software they need to run.
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    Many on HN might be intimately familiar with macOS internals, but we are not in any way or form the average users. Running OPNSense on Proxmox definitely sets the "outlier" sticky bit. Most users do not watch WWDC and do not know what OS release notes are. They don't know what the boundary between their web browser and their OS is, and macOS just becomes "the thing that nags them to update it" - a nag that users unfortunately still ignore, as evident by my recent confrontation with Big Sur machines.
    - nullindividual 3y ago
      Oh I completely agree with you that folks on HN are likely to be of a particular mindset when it comes to technology purchases. However, that doesn't mean that every non-HN user out there buys the aluminum-shell-in-the-vague-shape-of-a-laptop and doesn't make a conscious choice. My point still stands. The GP doesn't have the data to back up the assertion.
      - arghwhat 3y ago
        There is also no data to back up the opposite assertion. It would be rather surprising to see comments on HN based on hard statistical data - an implicit "IMO" prefix makes sense to apply in most human discussions. > That does not mean that every non-HN user... Not every - but I do believe it is still the majority. There are a lot of people out there, and the knowledge required to make the aforementioned OS choice is niche. This is not implying stupidity, just that there are many trades and interests out there, and subscribing to ours specifically is not a given.
- ghaff 3y ago
  But at that point then who gives a damn what the “desktop” or other market share is because it’s essentially meaningless and can be manipulated into whatever you want it to be. Add in the fact that a lot of what you run whether SaaS or even a shell is in a server somewhere else. The actual client operating system is increasingly about as relevant for a lot of use cases as what software your terminal ran a few decades ago.
jrm4 3y ago
Eh, I'd say two things: It's VERY EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to "teach the controversy" of GNU+Linux. It's not at all important to actually use the term.
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  It can be quite pragmatic to use it too, there's no need to be religious about it. Even though the term gets criticized for "what about other parts than GNU", "what about Alpine" etc. it's actually a very useful term which makes people know exactly what you mean behind it, which is not something that can be said about "Linux" without providing additional context.
  - jrm4 3y ago
    Exactly. We got GNU/Linux, we got GNU/kWindows, we got DalvikJavaWhatever/Linux etc etc
handmadeta 3y ago
well, maybe you are right and it's not as clear cut. But I think people very intentionally buy a PC or a Mac which to most means the hardware and the operating system together. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but NOBODY here is counting mac user as BSD users either.

Draiken 3y ago

Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. For many non tech savvy users if you give them a Linux laptop with any modern DE, they can't tell the difference. But it seems these filters are almost always cherry picked against Linux for some reason I sincerely don't know.

Sporktacular 3y ago
"And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either." I don't see why. I really like macOS. More than any other environment it's uncluttered, well organised, it gets out of the way. It abstracts a lot of unnecessary technical detail but still allows diving into that, if I'm inclined. And most of all, I like well integrated system-wide features instead of palming it off to developers. Sure the hardware is good too, but I don't know where you get that idea from.
pjmlp 3y ago
They would, as soon as they try to use any software most people on their circle of friends use, CD/DVD coming on the hardware they bought at the mall, or any computer magazine besides Linux Format and similar.
- mmis1000 3y ago
  My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. And the only thing he use it for entertainment is browser (for reading novels) If I am managed to setup all these properly on other system. I doubt him would ever notice a difference. Non tech user just can't care about what system he is using less. All matter for him are tools that help him to finish his work. What about dvd/cd or install some new softwares? Well, I am the in house tech support.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    That is the thing, he only manages that thanks to the in house tech support, he would be lost without it.
  - darkwater 3y ago
    > My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. That was a majority use-case between 2005-2015. Now it's a niche case (yeah, even if absolute numbers are still big enough, relatively speaking it's a niche)
- arghwhat 3y ago
  Well, in 2023 a majority of that would be web or electron apps so they might not be able to tell the difference. They would be equally stumped at the sight of a CD/DVD no matter their choice of OS, as machines have not shipped with optical drives in ages.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Most normal people don't buy new software all the time, most of them like to keep their old copies going as much as possible. Most desktop computers still do, and in alternative there are USB stick variants. Which doesn't change the fact regarding what drivers, for what set of OSes, are supported out of the box.
    - 3y ago
pulvinar 3y ago
Except many if not most (at least in the past) chose a Mac for the software first and the hardware second. I know I did. And I’ve also been using desktop Linux begrudgingly beside it, ever since it existed. Windows too, though I’ve lately removed any need for that.
nullindividual 3y ago
> Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. I'm not sure what would make you an authoritative source on why people by Macs or where you're sourcing your thoroughly researched data, but I can tell you I purchased an MBA to run macOS and the software that runs on macOS. Or like the Intel N100 mini PC I purchased explicitly to run proxmox + OPNSense. Or like my Windows laptop to have a mobile lab. I pick the machine based on the software I want to run. I'm sure we can find one, perhaps if we stretch it, two other people on HN who also purchase machines based off of the OS/software they need to run.
- arghwhat 3y ago
  Many on HN might be intimately familiar with macOS internals, but we are not in any way or form the average users. Running OPNSense on Proxmox definitely sets the "outlier" sticky bit. Most users do not watch WWDC and do not know what OS release notes are. They don't know what the boundary between their web browser and their OS is, and macOS just becomes "the thing that nags them to update it" - a nag that users unfortunately still ignore, as evident by my recent confrontation with Big Sur machines.
  - nullindividual 3y ago
    Oh I completely agree with you that folks on HN are likely to be of a particular mindset when it comes to technology purchases. However, that doesn't mean that every non-HN user out there buys the aluminum-shell-in-the-vague-shape-of-a-laptop and doesn't make a conscious choice. My point still stands. The GP doesn't have the data to back up the assertion.
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      There is also no data to back up the opposite assertion. It would be rather surprising to see comments on HN based on hard statistical data - an implicit "IMO" prefix makes sense to apply in most human discussions. > That does not mean that every non-HN user... Not every - but I do believe it is still the majority. There are a lot of people out there, and the knowledge required to make the aforementioned OS choice is niche. This is not implying stupidity, just that there are many trades and interests out there, and subscribing to ours specifically is not a given.
ghaff 3y ago
But at that point then who gives a damn what the “desktop” or other market share is because it’s essentially meaningless and can be manipulated into whatever you want it to be. Add in the fact that a lot of what you run whether SaaS or even a shell is in a server somewhere else. The actual client operating system is increasingly about as relevant for a lot of use cases as what software your terminal ran a few decades ago.

jrm4 3y ago

Eh, I'd say two things: It's VERY EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to "teach the controversy" of GNU+Linux. It's not at all important to actually use the term.

seba_dos1 3y ago
It can be quite pragmatic to use it too, there's no need to be religious about it. Even though the term gets criticized for "what about other parts than GNU", "what about Alpine" etc. it's actually a very useful term which makes people know exactly what you mean behind it, which is not something that can be said about "Linux" without providing additional context.
- jrm4 3y ago
  Exactly. We got GNU/Linux, we got GNU/kWindows, we got DalvikJavaWhatever/Linux etc etc

handmadeta 3y ago

well, maybe you are right and it's not as clear cut. But I think people very intentionally buy a PC or a Mac which to most means the hardware and the operating system together. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but NOBODY here is counting mac user as BSD users either.