8 ms·

I am not sure it's a matter of bias. Instead, I think it's that "Linux" is an overloaded term. One sense is that someone downloads and installs a "Linux" distr

I am not sure it's a matter of bias. Instead, I think it's that "Linux" is an overloaded term. One sense is that someone downloads and installs a "Linux" distro because they actually want to use "GNU+Linux" (wink). The other sense, what you are aluding, to is that linux is foundational to most things IT. If I subscribe to DSL the provider is probably going to send me a modem that runs linux. But that doesn't mean I chose linux. I just wanted DSL. Same for Android. Most people that use Android didn't choose a linux-based mobile operating system. They want Android or are just using whats one the phone they wanted. And indeed, I don't think many "GNU+Linux" people would tolerate the specific essense of Android in their distros. Now, SteamOS might be the bridge between these two worlds. On the one hand, Steam Deck users also didn't chose Linux. But then, the resources that Valve can spend on enabling gaming on Linux because of the success of Steam Deck means that many more people, like me, can finally consider choosing Linux.

dizhn 3y ago
I agree with this assessment but the same two senses exist for Iphones and Macs too. To some extent it is even the same with Windows. A lot of people just buy _a_ laptop. They don't even know what an operating system is.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  They know to the extent of the applications they need to use, when accessing goverment sites, and if it doesn't work it is broken, from their point of view. Having said this, the local library from my German city does run on GNU/Linux.
arghwhat 3y ago
At the same time, the majority of those running Windows have the same relationship to it as you have with Linux on your DSL modem - "It's what the computer I bought comes with" - and yet we are not discounting those Windows users. Same goes for macOS, especially now where Asahi Linux is the only and yet incomplete alternative. In some comparisons it makes sense to remove DSL modems from the equation and focusing on some more "computer-like" subset of device (otherwise no OS would ever do better than "several orders of magnitude fewer deployments than Linux"), but discounting every device where you did not actively pick the OS would make for an extremely biased comparison. Plus, we don't care about such distinctions outside comparisons. SteamOS have already driven significant improvements for regular desktop users. Same goes for Tizen, Android and ChromeOS. Even wonky DSL firmwares have positive effects for the rest of us. > GNU+Linux no.
- Draiken 3y ago
  Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. For many non tech savvy users if you give them a Linux laptop with any modern DE, they can't tell the difference. But it seems these filters are almost always cherry picked against Linux for some reason I sincerely don't know.
  - Sporktacular 3y ago
    "And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either." I don't see why. I really like macOS. More than any other environment it's uncluttered, well organised, it gets out of the way. It abstracts a lot of unnecessary technical detail but still allows diving into that, if I'm inclined. And most of all, I like well integrated system-wide features instead of palming it off to developers. Sure the hardware is good too, but I don't know where you get that idea from.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    They would, as soon as they try to use any software most people on their circle of friends use, CD/DVD coming on the hardware they bought at the mall, or any computer magazine besides Linux Format and similar.
    - mmis1000 3y ago
      My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. And the only thing he use it for entertainment is browser (for reading novels) If I am managed to setup all these properly on other system. I doubt him would ever notice a difference. Non tech user just can't care about what system he is using less. All matter for him are tools that help him to finish his work. What about dvd/cd or install some new softwares? Well, I am the in house tech support.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        That is the thing, he only manages that thanks to the in house tech support, he would be lost without it.
executesorder66 3y ago
> or are just using whats one the phone they wanted In that case 99.9% of windows users fall in the same category. They are just using the OS that came on the device they bought. How many people actually bought a separate license, and downloaded a Windows installer because they specifically wanted to install Windows on their device?
- deadbunny 3y ago
  How many people actually bought a separate license, and downloaded a Windows installer because they specifically wanted to install Windows on their device? Pretty much the entire (DIY) PC gaming market? Granted they may not buy Windows but they are certainly making the choice to download and use it over linux. Sure there is a pre-built market for desktop PCs but I would think the PC Gaming market skews to DIY though I have no stats. Note: I run arch btw.
  - executesorder66 3y ago
    Yeah I know. But they must be less than 0.5% of the total number of Windows users. Probably even less. So you are just proving my point here that practically all windows users just use the OS that comes with the device they got.
    - ac29 3y ago
      The story you are commenting on is about a hardware survey of gamers. I think quite a bit more than 0.5% chose to use Windows intentionally.
  - bitcharmer 3y ago
    No, that used to be the case a few years ago. Proton runs practically any game on Linux these days. No good reason to pick windows these days
    - bombolo 3y ago
      proton is good, but it's not nearly that good.
lolinder 3y ago
I would be very curious to see the numbers comparing intentional OS installation. How many people go out of their way to buy and install Windows (thereby truly choosing Windows) versus how many people go out of their way to download and install Linux. If Linux wins in that category as well, could we finally stop moving the goalposts?
- handmadeta 3y ago
  You know, I used to be a Windows guy but Windows really jumped the shark some years ago and so I am just preparing to move over to Linux at the next best time. This is just to say, I want to the best for Linux and I don't want to move the goalposts unfairly. But I do think there is diffence between "using" Linux as in Android and using Linux as in Arch and I think the people who use Windows use it more similarly to that later way.
bitcharmer 3y ago
Your whole comment is hilarously incorrect because overwhelming majority of windows users never intentionally installed it. It just came pre-installed with their new laptop. The exact scenario you invoke with a DSL device.
- Sporktacular 3y ago
  Do you have stats on that? I would imagine if you swapped it out with linux or BSD they would have something to say about why all their apps aren't available. It's a choice. A modem's application is the one thing it does and the interface is an abstraction layer standardised enough that the modem could be replaced in a shoe closet without anyone even noticing.

dizhn 3y ago

I agree with this assessment but the same two senses exist for Iphones and Macs too. To some extent it is even the same with Windows. A lot of people just buy _a_ laptop. They don't even know what an operating system is.

pjmlp 3y ago
They know to the extent of the applications they need to use, when accessing goverment sites, and if it doesn't work it is broken, from their point of view. Having said this, the local library from my German city does run on GNU/Linux.

arghwhat 3y ago

At the same time, the majority of those running Windows have the same relationship to it as you have with Linux on your DSL modem - "It's what the computer I bought comes with" - and yet we are not discounting those Windows users. Same goes for macOS, especially now where Asahi Linux is the only and yet incomplete alternative. In some comparisons it makes sense to remove DSL modems from the equation and focusing on some more "computer-like" subset of device (otherwise no OS would ever do better than "several orders of magnitude fewer deployments than Linux"), but discounting every device where you did not actively pick the OS would make for an extremely biased comparison. Plus, we don't care about such distinctions outside comparisons. SteamOS have already driven significant improvements for regular desktop users. Same goes for Tizen, Android and ChromeOS. Even wonky DSL firmwares have positive effects for the rest of us. > GNU+Linux no.

Draiken 3y ago
Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either. For many non tech savvy users if you give them a Linux laptop with any modern DE, they can't tell the difference. But it seems these filters are almost always cherry picked against Linux for some reason I sincerely don't know.
- Sporktacular 3y ago
  "And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either." I don't see why. I really like macOS. More than any other environment it's uncluttered, well organised, it gets out of the way. It abstracts a lot of unnecessary technical detail but still allows diving into that, if I'm inclined. And most of all, I like well integrated system-wide features instead of palming it off to developers. Sure the hardware is good too, but I don't know where you get that idea from.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  They would, as soon as they try to use any software most people on their circle of friends use, CD/DVD coming on the hardware they bought at the mall, or any computer magazine besides Linux Format and similar.
  - mmis1000 3y ago
    My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him. And the only thing he use it for entertainment is browser (for reading novels) If I am managed to setup all these properly on other system. I doubt him would ever notice a difference. Non tech user just can't care about what system he is using less. All matter for him are tools that help him to finish his work. What about dvd/cd or install some new softwares? Well, I am the in house tech support.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      That is the thing, he only manages that thanks to the in house tech support, he would be lost without it.

executesorder66 3y ago

> or are just using whats one the phone they wanted In that case 99.9% of windows users fall in the same category. They are just using the OS that came on the device they bought. How many people actually bought a separate license, and downloaded a Windows installer because they specifically wanted to install Windows on their device?

deadbunny 3y ago
How many people actually bought a separate license, and downloaded a Windows installer because they specifically wanted to install Windows on their device? Pretty much the entire (DIY) PC gaming market? Granted they may not buy Windows but they are certainly making the choice to download and use it over linux. Sure there is a pre-built market for desktop PCs but I would think the PC Gaming market skews to DIY though I have no stats. Note: I run arch btw.
- executesorder66 3y ago
  Yeah I know. But they must be less than 0.5% of the total number of Windows users. Probably even less. So you are just proving my point here that practically all windows users just use the OS that comes with the device they got.
  - ac29 3y ago
    The story you are commenting on is about a hardware survey of gamers. I think quite a bit more than 0.5% chose to use Windows intentionally.
- bitcharmer 3y ago
  No, that used to be the case a few years ago. Proton runs practically any game on Linux these days. No good reason to pick windows these days
  - bombolo 3y ago
    proton is good, but it's not nearly that good.

lolinder 3y ago

I would be very curious to see the numbers comparing intentional OS installation. How many people go out of their way to buy and install Windows (thereby truly choosing Windows) versus how many people go out of their way to download and install Linux. If Linux wins in that category as well, could we finally stop moving the goalposts?

handmadeta 3y ago
You know, I used to be a Windows guy but Windows really jumped the shark some years ago and so I am just preparing to move over to Linux at the next best time. This is just to say, I want to the best for Linux and I don't want to move the goalposts unfairly. But I do think there is diffence between "using" Linux as in Android and using Linux as in Arch and I think the people who use Windows use it more similarly to that later way.

bitcharmer 3y ago

Your whole comment is hilarously incorrect because overwhelming majority of windows users never intentionally installed it. It just came pre-installed with their new laptop. The exact scenario you invoke with a DSL device.

Sporktacular 3y ago
Do you have stats on that? I would imagine if you swapped it out with linux or BSD they would have something to say about why all their apps aren't available. It's a choice. A modem's application is the one thing it does and the interface is an abstraction layer standardised enough that the modem could be replaced in a shoe closet without anyone even noticing.