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And I hope you can separate colonialism from empire building. European colonization was meant to enrich the host state at the expense of the colony. Whereas th

And I hope you can separate colonialism from empire building. European colonization was meant to enrich the host state at the expense of the colony. Whereas the Mughals outright conquered India, moved there and lived in it for the next 400 years. Their kids lived and died in India. They cut of their ties with their brethren in Samarkand and more importantly did not take India's wealth outside of India. The fact is most historic Indian Jewels (i.e. Kohi noor) are locked up in London, not Samarkand. Comparing the Mughals with the European colonizers is silly. The fact is Mughals became as Indian as the natives who lived there. They married locals and looked like them eventually. See the last picture of the Mughal emperor imprisoned by the British: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahadur_Shah_Zafar#/media/File:Bahadur_Shah_Zafar.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahadur_Shah_Zafar#/media/File... He looks like a dark skinned Indian Yogi.

the_third_wave 3y ago
If you really want to go there I'll ask the following question: Europeans colonised the Americas and Oceania and lived - and live - there but they are still accused of living on 'stolen' land. Given your statements on the Mughals I assume the same holds true here? What about Europeans in e.g. South Africa, comparing racial apartheid (South Africa) to religious apartheid [1] (Mughal empire)? Another thing to consider: had I posted something critical of some western coloniser instead of an islamic one it is unlikely there would have been any discussion on the subject as it is considered bon ton to do so - which goes straight back to my reason for posting in the first place. [1] "The religious policy of the Mughal emperors", https://www.rarebooksocietyofindia.org/book_archive/196174216674_10154899028046675.pdf https://www.rarebooksocietyofindia.org/book_archive/19617421...
- defrost 3y ago
  > Europeans colonised [...] Oceania and live there but they are still accused of living on 'stolen' land. Which they've acknowledged, which makes it less of an accusation and far more a self evident uncontested fact. On 3 June 1992 the High Court of Australia recognised that a group of Torres Strait Islanders, led by Eddie Mabo, held ownership of Mer (Murray Island). In acknowledging the traditional rights of the Meriam people to their land, the court also held that native title existed for all Indigenous people. https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mabo-decision https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mabo-decis... https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2017/06/02/five-things-you-should-know-about-the-mabo-decision.html https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2017/06/02/five-...
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    You're moving the goal posts here. Does the fact that the Mughals - and for that matter no other colonisers other than some Western self-flagellating descendants from earlier colonists - never even thought of 'acknowledging they lived on stolen land' negate their actions? Clearly it does not.
    - defrost 3y ago
      I'm not shifting goalposts as I care little for your game. I corrected your 'air quotes' doing the heavy work of sneeringly implied so called. Stolen land is legally recognised as stolen, here in Australia at least, and is still stolen, where it has been stolen, about the globe. Here, at least, "Western self-flagellating descendants" were hoisted by their own Crown legal system - they began by officially declaring the land Terra Nullus and then had to accept that either their legal framework going back to the Romans was up shit creek, OR, that they had no legal basis for that declaration and were forced to roll it back and admit theft.

the_third_wave 3y ago

If you really want to go there I'll ask the following question: Europeans colonised the Americas and Oceania and lived - and live - there but they are still accused of living on 'stolen' land. Given your statements on the Mughals I assume the same holds true here? What about Europeans in e.g. South Africa, comparing racial apartheid (South Africa) to religious apartheid [1] (Mughal empire)? Another thing to consider: had I posted something critical of some western coloniser instead of an islamic one it is unlikely there would have been any discussion on the subject as it is considered bon ton to do so - which goes straight back to my reason for posting in the first place. [1] "The religious policy of the Mughal emperors", https://www.rarebooksocietyofindia.org/book_archive/196174216674_10154899028046675.pdf https://www.rarebooksocietyofindia.org/book_archive/19617421...

defrost 3y ago
> Europeans colonised [...] Oceania and live there but they are still accused of living on 'stolen' land. Which they've acknowledged, which makes it less of an accusation and far more a self evident uncontested fact. On 3 June 1992 the High Court of Australia recognised that a group of Torres Strait Islanders, led by Eddie Mabo, held ownership of Mer (Murray Island). In acknowledging the traditional rights of the Meriam people to their land, the court also held that native title existed for all Indigenous people. https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mabo-decision https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mabo-decis... https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2017/06/02/five-things-you-should-know-about-the-mabo-decision.html https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2017/06/02/five-...
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  You're moving the goal posts here. Does the fact that the Mughals - and for that matter no other colonisers other than some Western self-flagellating descendants from earlier colonists - never even thought of 'acknowledging they lived on stolen land' negate their actions? Clearly it does not.
  - defrost 3y ago
    I'm not shifting goalposts as I care little for your game. I corrected your 'air quotes' doing the heavy work of sneeringly implied so called. Stolen land is legally recognised as stolen, here in Australia at least, and is still stolen, where it has been stolen, about the globe. Here, at least, "Western self-flagellating descendants" were hoisted by their own Crown legal system - they began by officially declaring the land Terra Nullus and then had to accept that either their legal framework going back to the Romans was up shit creek, OR, that they had no legal basis for that declaration and were forced to roll it back and admit theft.