6 ms·

So far lab replication efforts are: Two from HUST: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV14p4y1V7kS/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV14p4y1V7kS/ https://www.bilibi

by est 3y ago

So far lab replication efforts are: Two from HUST: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV14p4y1V7kS/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV14p4y1V7kS/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV13k4y1G7i1/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV13k4y1G7i1/ One by USTC https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ex4y1X7ix/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ex4y1X7ix/ this tiny sample can stand on its pointy side. One by Qufu Normal University https://www.zhihu.com/zvideo/1669820225079070720 https://www.zhihu.com/zvideo/1669820225079070720 One with THU background but claims a personal project https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV14z4y1s7Vo https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV14z4y1s7Vo Why are't more labs outside China making LK-99 and publish videos?

jacquesm 3y ago
> Why are't more labs outside China making LK-99 and publish videos? some possibilities: - they have not been able to conclusively replicate anything and don't want to publish a negative result for fear of someone else publishing a conclusive positive result later. - they are more careful to publish something that they are not (yet?) 100% sure about - they don't care so much about the whole 'science in the spotlight' thing and prefer to go the traditional route of publishing after peer review of one or more papers rather than to make YT videos and having to fend off a barrage of interaction - fear of getting it wrong.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- senttoschool 3y ago
  To add to your list of possible reasons: - There are way more STEM graduates in China by a wide margin - 18/20 of top universities in the world for chemistry research is in China according to Nature, including one of the attempts by USTC (#2 ranking): https://www.nature.com/nature-index/institution-outputs/generate/chemistry/global/all https://www.nature.com/nature-index/institution-outputs/gene... - Supply chain is faster in China for chemicals and materials - China has more money/equipment for this sort of stuff - China is on average, more pro-science than the rest of the world
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, good points though the money angle is debatable. The USA and Europe are 'on average' also more pro-science than the rest of the world, but I think the East has the edge in education and comes across as more focused on progress. Probably this is underpinned in part because they have a ton of very hard problems that need solving and in the 'rich West' people are much less driven because their lives and the lives of their families are on average already quite plushy. It makes you wonder what could happen in Africa and Latin America once they embrace education and science.
    - senttoschool 3y ago
      One difference I’ve found living in the West and China is that being academically successful often gets you made fun of in the US but adored in China. There’s quite a lot of anti-intellectualism in the US. Therefore, there’s an equal amount of anti-science. Meanwhile, every Chinese I’ve ever met is pro-education and thinks highly of science.
      - calf 3y ago
        You should see the look on my parents' HK church friends whenever I unintentionally start talking about science, it's like I said a swear word.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        I can see some problems with the setting, not necessarily the country.
        senttoschool 3y ago
        That actually proves one of my points. I didn’t want to get into it too much but I wrote that Chinese people are on average, more pro-science because they’re less religious or that their religion does not strongly contradict with science. I’m guessing your parents’ HK church friends are Christians?
light_hue_1 3y ago
Because all of these replications aren't contributing much; they're bare bones efforts with little to no scientific insight. Not one of these papers is conclusive in terms of showing evidence for it being a superconductor. None of them even contribute meaningfully. This happens in machine learning all the time. Low quality papers rush in after every major release and announcement in order to be first. But in the long term they're meaningless because it takes time to do a good job. Good labs don't want to announce half done maybe results. They want to announce conclusive comprehensive high quality results they can stand behind. That's what moves science forward. Plenty of labs are working on lk-99, but they won't publish this sort of half assed analysis.
- iamshs 3y ago
  These studies help enthuse people though. I welcome them. Not for science but potential. Tells me that something is there, rest is on experts as you said.
marginalia_nu 3y ago
> Why are't more labs outside China making LK-99 and publish videos? Good rigorous science takes time to produce. It can take anywhere between several months to a year or more, and the career implications for rushing something out that is later found lacking is not great.
- wenyuanyu 3y ago
  While it's true that good science often takes time, I believe it's not necessarily the whole picture. In fast-paced and rapidly evolving fields like this one, swift and open sharing of progress can be incredibly valuable. This is evident from the recent developments in AI and large language models (LLMs), where real-time collaboration and data sharing have led to exponential advancements.
- abnry 3y ago
  > the career implications for rushing something out that is later found lacking is not great. On a tangent, this idea of reputation keeps on coming up in this whole discussion and I am burdened by it in a way I don't fully understand. The way people have talked, if this LK-99 doesn't work out, then it is almost as if those who published this did something _morally_ wrong. Well, morally wrong is not quite true, but the way people talk about it tanking their reputation it feels like such a strong statement. Is there some way we can focus on the science and not get bogged down in the very human reputational part of this whole thing? It's almost as if a good chunk of the scientific community don't care about the benefits the science brings but the reputational benefits.
  - adrianmonk 3y ago
    A scientist's career depends on their reputation. For them to have the best opportunities, they need everyone to have the highest respect for the quality of their work. If they damage their reputation, it could ruin everything they've spent decades working toward. Of course they care about science itself, but there's a limit to what risks they'll be willing to take when it affects them personally. For people with a relatively low reputation (or no reputation, i.e. unknown), taking a risk is not a bad move. They have less opportunity, and there's a chance the risk might pay off and boost their reputation. For people whose reputation is already good, the risk is less worth it. They don't stand to gain as much, and they could lose a lot. So they're less likely to do it.
civilitty 3y ago
> Why are't more labs outside China making LK-99 and publish videos? Red phosphorus, one of the ingredients in the synthesis, is a controlled substance in the US. Might be delaying everyone while they fill out the paperwork with whoever their supplier is.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  'Excuse me sir, would you like to buy a kilo of red phosphorous?'
marmakoide 3y ago
I guess it's a mix of - It's a good opportunity to gain visibility by working something grabbing the news. 1st room temperature superconductor, that's big - (Under)graduate lab interns can be thrown onto any crash projects at will without much repercussion or resistance, boss is boss and should not be subject to questioning I did a post-doc in China, so that's my sample size N=1 piece of cheap opinion
- jliptzin 3y ago
  With zero resistance actually
wenyuanyu 3y ago
I am from China. Not surprised at all.. Young researchers in China often face intense competition and pressure. While they are generally well-funded in the short-term, even more so than their counterparts in the US or Europe, the lack of long-term career security can be challenging. They must continuously chase after every potential scientific breakthrough, like LK-99, not just out of passion or curiosity, but as a necessary step for survival in their career. Furthermore, the system in China offers many awards, grants, and titles that are tied to age. These are not just for prestige but are critical for progressing in their career. This situation adds another layer of urgency and competition among young researchers.
- seanthemon 3y ago
  Would this lead to rushed results? Or it's worse to give bad results than no results?
  - dluan 3y ago
    Better to do science out in the open and let the results speak for themselves.
  - rfoo 3y ago
    Yes, as you have seen this time.
- f6v 3y ago
  > lack of long-term career security can be challenging I don’t know, my fellow PhD students in EU have the same fears.
  - Nifty3929 3y ago
    But it sounds like at least in China, there is some clear action they can do about it, so that’s the motivator. What would some PhD student in EU who is worried about job security be able to do about it constructively?
    - 3y ago
FrostyFlowers 3y ago
Several months ago a professor from Tsinghua University got 2 million views in bilibili. https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1cY4y1y7ZM https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1cY4y1y7ZM Translation of the title: If room temperature superconductivity is really repeated, I will eat shit Then this topic became hot in bilibili. Currently the first LK-99 replication video reaches nearly 10 million views.
justsee 3y ago
There seems to be a few live efforts underway on Twitter: * https://twitter.com/andrewmccalip/status/1687288889717989376 https://twitter.com/andrewmccalip/status/1687288889717989376 * https://twitter.com/CondMatfyz/status/1687051547337781248 https://twitter.com/CondMatfyz/status/1687051547337781248 I imagine over the next few weeks there'll be an explosion of efforts to replicate if it's truly that straightforward to produce for reasonably-equipped labs.
shusaku 3y ago
I think the comments you are receiving are missing the simplest explanation: Chinese labs are better at synthesis, and there’s a lot of them.
- lucubratory 3y ago
  A lot of commenters here are from the West, and the atmosphere between the PRC and the West (particularly the US) at the moment is quite a bit more acrimonious and competitive than it has been historically. It makes sense that people would leap first to essentially "They aren't as smart as us"/"They're less honest than us"/"They're less trustworthy than us" etc. The simplest and most likely correct explanation is that the PRC has a lot more STEM students in absolute terms and even proportionately, more and very well funded labs with very ambitious leadership and "national spirit"/"something to prove" style thinking, and that particularly in chemistry/materials science the PRC is dominant, with a huge proportion of all the highest quality chemistry focused universities, academies etc.
  - senttoschool 3y ago
    I, too, found it fascinating how every initial reply dodged giving the Chinese credit. Instead, all of them tried every way to paint their publications in a negative light. Surely, most tech workers have encountered working with highly competent technical coworkers from China? Or that Chinese students in America tend to perform well above average academically? Why should anyone be surprised that China performs exceedingly well in sciences?
    - fennecfoxy 3y ago
      But they have also encountered IP theft and Chinese nationals assaulting local and foreign nationals in countries they are lucky and fortunate to have the right to study in, over protests: https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3019888/hong-kong-and-mainland-china-students-clash-rally-australian https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3019888/h... Now I hate that I have to say this (because it should be a given), but _obviously_ this does not apply across the board, but when people experience shocking behaviour like this you can see why they might hold grudges or biases, even when that's wrong to do. That aside, China & the US (of which are are a lot of Americans on this site) seem to have held a grudge for quite a long time now, on both sides. Which is a shame, because we're all human at the end of the day and especially science should recognise that stupid tribal human concepts like nationalities and borders are meaningless to the big picture.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
7_hours_ago 3y ago
Unrelated, but yeah https://youtu.be/7DqvweTYTI0 https://youtu.be/7DqvweTYTI0
blinding-streak 3y ago
The vast majority of science does not take place on Twitter.
- est 3y ago
  Depends it's wet lab science or dry lab. but it's a growing trend anyway. Twitter is just one of those communication platforms.
- meeho 3y ago
  Yes, it happens on tiktok
0xDEF 3y ago
Most Western European researchers have been on vacation the past few weeks. I don't fault them for failing to synthesize room-temperature superconductors while they were relaxing in some resort in Turkey or Thailand.
senttoschool 3y ago
>One by USTC https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ex4y1X7ix/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ex4y1X7ix/ this tiny sample can stand on its pointy side. USTC is the second best university in the world in chemistry research according to Nature. [0] [0] https://www.nature.com/nature-index/institution-outputs/generate/chemistry/global/all https://www.nature.com/nature-index/institution-outputs/gene...

by est 3y ago

jacquesm 3y ago

> Why are't more labs outside China making LK-99 and publish videos? some possibilities: - they have not been able to conclusively replicate anything and don't want to publish a negative result for fear of someone else publishing a conclusive positive result later. - they are more careful to publish something that they are not (yet?) 100% sure about - they don't care so much about the whole 'science in the spotlight' thing and prefer to go the traditional route of publishing after peer review of one or more papers rather than to make YT videos and having to fend off a barrage of interaction - fear of getting it wrong.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
senttoschool 3y ago
To add to your list of possible reasons: - There are way more STEM graduates in China by a wide margin - 18/20 of top universities in the world for chemistry research is in China according to Nature, including one of the attempts by USTC (#2 ranking): https://www.nature.com/nature-index/institution-outputs/generate/chemistry/global/all https://www.nature.com/nature-index/institution-outputs/gene... - Supply chain is faster in China for chemicals and materials - China has more money/equipment for this sort of stuff - China is on average, more pro-science than the rest of the world
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, good points though the money angle is debatable. The USA and Europe are 'on average' also more pro-science than the rest of the world, but I think the East has the edge in education and comes across as more focused on progress. Probably this is underpinned in part because they have a ton of very hard problems that need solving and in the 'rich West' people are much less driven because their lives and the lives of their families are on average already quite plushy. It makes you wonder what could happen in Africa and Latin America once they embrace education and science.
  - senttoschool 3y ago
    One difference I’ve found living in the West and China is that being academically successful often gets you made fun of in the US but adored in China. There’s quite a lot of anti-intellectualism in the US. Therefore, there’s an equal amount of anti-science. Meanwhile, every Chinese I’ve ever met is pro-education and thinks highly of science.
    - calf 3y ago
      You should see the look on my parents' HK church friends whenever I unintentionally start talking about science, it's like I said a swear word.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        I can see some problems with the setting, not necessarily the country.
      - senttoschool 3y ago
        That actually proves one of my points. I didn’t want to get into it too much but I wrote that Chinese people are on average, more pro-science because they’re less religious or that their religion does not strongly contradict with science. I’m guessing your parents’ HK church friends are Christians?

light_hue_1 3y ago

Because all of these replications aren't contributing much; they're bare bones efforts with little to no scientific insight. Not one of these papers is conclusive in terms of showing evidence for it being a superconductor. None of them even contribute meaningfully. This happens in machine learning all the time. Low quality papers rush in after every major release and announcement in order to be first. But in the long term they're meaningless because it takes time to do a good job. Good labs don't want to announce half done maybe results. They want to announce conclusive comprehensive high quality results they can stand behind. That's what moves science forward. Plenty of labs are working on lk-99, but they won't publish this sort of half assed analysis.

iamshs 3y ago
These studies help enthuse people though. I welcome them. Not for science but potential. Tells me that something is there, rest is on experts as you said.

marginalia_nu 3y ago

> Why are't more labs outside China making LK-99 and publish videos? Good rigorous science takes time to produce. It can take anywhere between several months to a year or more, and the career implications for rushing something out that is later found lacking is not great.

wenyuanyu 3y ago
While it's true that good science often takes time, I believe it's not necessarily the whole picture. In fast-paced and rapidly evolving fields like this one, swift and open sharing of progress can be incredibly valuable. This is evident from the recent developments in AI and large language models (LLMs), where real-time collaboration and data sharing have led to exponential advancements.
abnry 3y ago
> the career implications for rushing something out that is later found lacking is not great. On a tangent, this idea of reputation keeps on coming up in this whole discussion and I am burdened by it in a way I don't fully understand. The way people have talked, if this LK-99 doesn't work out, then it is almost as if those who published this did something _morally_ wrong. Well, morally wrong is not quite true, but the way people talk about it tanking their reputation it feels like such a strong statement. Is there some way we can focus on the science and not get bogged down in the very human reputational part of this whole thing? It's almost as if a good chunk of the scientific community don't care about the benefits the science brings but the reputational benefits.
- adrianmonk 3y ago
  A scientist's career depends on their reputation. For them to have the best opportunities, they need everyone to have the highest respect for the quality of their work. If they damage their reputation, it could ruin everything they've spent decades working toward. Of course they care about science itself, but there's a limit to what risks they'll be willing to take when it affects them personally. For people with a relatively low reputation (or no reputation, i.e. unknown), taking a risk is not a bad move. They have less opportunity, and there's a chance the risk might pay off and boost their reputation. For people whose reputation is already good, the risk is less worth it. They don't stand to gain as much, and they could lose a lot. So they're less likely to do it.

civilitty 3y ago

> Why are't more labs outside China making LK-99 and publish videos? Red phosphorus, one of the ingredients in the synthesis, is a controlled substance in the US. Might be delaying everyone while they fill out the paperwork with whoever their supplier is.

jacquesm 3y ago
'Excuse me sir, would you like to buy a kilo of red phosphorous?'

marmakoide 3y ago

I guess it's a mix of - It's a good opportunity to gain visibility by working something grabbing the news. 1st room temperature superconductor, that's big - (Under)graduate lab interns can be thrown onto any crash projects at will without much repercussion or resistance, boss is boss and should not be subject to questioning I did a post-doc in China, so that's my sample size N=1 piece of cheap opinion

jliptzin 3y ago
With zero resistance actually

wenyuanyu 3y ago

I am from China. Not surprised at all.. Young researchers in China often face intense competition and pressure. While they are generally well-funded in the short-term, even more so than their counterparts in the US or Europe, the lack of long-term career security can be challenging. They must continuously chase after every potential scientific breakthrough, like LK-99, not just out of passion or curiosity, but as a necessary step for survival in their career. Furthermore, the system in China offers many awards, grants, and titles that are tied to age. These are not just for prestige but are critical for progressing in their career. This situation adds another layer of urgency and competition among young researchers.

seanthemon 3y ago
Would this lead to rushed results? Or it's worse to give bad results than no results?
- dluan 3y ago
  Better to do science out in the open and let the results speak for themselves.
- rfoo 3y ago
  Yes, as you have seen this time.
f6v 3y ago
> lack of long-term career security can be challenging I don’t know, my fellow PhD students in EU have the same fears.
- Nifty3929 3y ago
  But it sounds like at least in China, there is some clear action they can do about it, so that’s the motivator. What would some PhD student in EU who is worried about job security be able to do about it constructively?
  - 3y ago

FrostyFlowers 3y ago

Several months ago a professor from Tsinghua University got 2 million views in bilibili. https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1cY4y1y7ZM https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1cY4y1y7ZM Translation of the title: If room temperature superconductivity is really repeated, I will eat shit Then this topic became hot in bilibili. Currently the first LK-99 replication video reaches nearly 10 million views.

justsee 3y ago

There seems to be a few live efforts underway on Twitter: * https://twitter.com/andrewmccalip/status/1687288889717989376 https://twitter.com/andrewmccalip/status/1687288889717989376 * https://twitter.com/CondMatfyz/status/1687051547337781248 https://twitter.com/CondMatfyz/status/1687051547337781248 I imagine over the next few weeks there'll be an explosion of efforts to replicate if it's truly that straightforward to produce for reasonably-equipped labs.

shusaku 3y ago

I think the comments you are receiving are missing the simplest explanation: Chinese labs are better at synthesis, and there’s a lot of them.

lucubratory 3y ago
A lot of commenters here are from the West, and the atmosphere between the PRC and the West (particularly the US) at the moment is quite a bit more acrimonious and competitive than it has been historically. It makes sense that people would leap first to essentially "They aren't as smart as us"/"They're less honest than us"/"They're less trustworthy than us" etc. The simplest and most likely correct explanation is that the PRC has a lot more STEM students in absolute terms and even proportionately, more and very well funded labs with very ambitious leadership and "national spirit"/"something to prove" style thinking, and that particularly in chemistry/materials science the PRC is dominant, with a huge proportion of all the highest quality chemistry focused universities, academies etc.
- senttoschool 3y ago
  I, too, found it fascinating how every initial reply dodged giving the Chinese credit. Instead, all of them tried every way to paint their publications in a negative light. Surely, most tech workers have encountered working with highly competent technical coworkers from China? Or that Chinese students in America tend to perform well above average academically? Why should anyone be surprised that China performs exceedingly well in sciences?
  - fennecfoxy 3y ago
    But they have also encountered IP theft and Chinese nationals assaulting local and foreign nationals in countries they are lucky and fortunate to have the right to study in, over protests: https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3019888/hong-kong-and-mainland-china-students-clash-rally-australian https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3019888/h... Now I hate that I have to say this (because it should be a given), but _obviously_ this does not apply across the board, but when people experience shocking behaviour like this you can see why they might hold grudges or biases, even when that's wrong to do. That aside, China & the US (of which are are a lot of Americans on this site) seem to have held a grudge for quite a long time now, on both sides. Which is a shame, because we're all human at the end of the day and especially science should recognise that stupid tribal human concepts like nationalities and borders are meaningless to the big picture.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

7_hours_ago 3y ago

Unrelated, but yeah https://youtu.be/7DqvweTYTI0 https://youtu.be/7DqvweTYTI0

blinding-streak 3y ago

The vast majority of science does not take place on Twitter.

est 3y ago
Depends it's wet lab science or dry lab. but it's a growing trend anyway. Twitter is just one of those communication platforms.
meeho 3y ago
Yes, it happens on tiktok

0xDEF 3y ago

Most Western European researchers have been on vacation the past few weeks. I don't fault them for failing to synthesize room-temperature superconductors while they were relaxing in some resort in Turkey or Thailand.

senttoschool 3y ago

>One by USTC https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ex4y1X7ix/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ex4y1X7ix/ this tiny sample can stand on its pointy side. USTC is the second best university in the world in chemistry research according to Nature. [0] [0] https://www.nature.com/nature-index/institution-outputs/generate/chemistry/global/all https://www.nature.com/nature-index/institution-outputs/gene...