4 ms·

Why can't you Americans just stop fetishizing university brands? In Europe nobody gives a shit if you graduated from, say, University of Frankfurt and not La Pe

Why can't you Americans just stop fetishizing university brands? In Europe nobody gives a shit if you graduated from, say, University of Frankfurt and not La Petit de Academy Francois Internatzionale. It's the content of the education that matters not the brand. You have a masters in archaeology? Ok, good luck finding a job. You have a masters in civil engineering? Good for you, you won't need luck. We even have evidence in forms of things like Mathematical Olympiads and coding competitions which are full of university students. Are they dominated by Ivy league students? No.

ipaddr 3y ago
People care about Oxford vs University of Bedfordshire. LMC Munich carries more weight than Hochschule der Wirtschaft für Management HdWM Mannheim
frozenport 3y ago
This isn't true. Sorbonne got you into the door of substantially higher paying finance jobs.
porknubbins 3y ago
American culture is almost entirely based on English not European culture. England historically was highly class based, heirarchical and had no revolution to upset the system. You might just as well attack Oxbridge. The Ivies are modern day route to preferment in presteige industries like big law and finance. Industries in which (for better or worse) US and UK firms are globally dominant. So it was less about education and more about training a ruling class.
- mvncleaninst 3y ago
  > American culture is almost entirely based on English not European culture. France also had a pretty strong influence on the founding fathers apparently. From what I've heard English are much nicer than we are
  - cafard 3y ago
    The influence consisted of money, arms, and troops, for the most part. They learned some rhetoric from the French, but I don't think that the cultural influence was at all deep.
- throwaway154 3y ago
  Europe's far from one single entity in education systems, and social system that's part of. In France, for example, you're far more likely to get into a top university if you have a parent that's a teacher. I postulate here: the interdisciplinary learning system, vs. the Anglo subject focused system, that looks good on paper works out quite hard to find success in without knowing success in navigating it and putting the pieces together. In Germany, good luck becomming the CEO of a large company without the right breeding. It happens, but not a lot. There's turtles all the way down, from managing relationships with other stakeholders (i.e., knowing who runs them) to bank funding (funding from stock is less prevalent than Anglo, it's mainly debt funding, importance of Landesbanks). Screw the well qualified engineers, middle management will squash them sucking up the class divide at the top. Sweden, prized for community. "So fucking claustrophobic I had to leave", "curtains twitch, everyone watches each other", "if you don't conform to the system, you need to be strong" "a nice place to retire, possibly" not only one Swede has said to me on their experiences on getting out [emigrating], interestingly all from smaller southern towns. [Interestingly, 'Collectivism' being the flip-side of 'Individualism' can mean those on the 'outside' of the collective have a much harder time than when there's no, or a weak, collective. See [1] Geert-Hofstede 'Model of national culture']. Europe's very class based, it's less transparent, more insidious. [1] https://geerthofstede.com/culture-geert-hofstede-gert-jan-hofstede/6d-model-of-national-culture/ https://geerthofstede.com/culture-geert-hofstede-gert-jan-ho...
wozniacki 3y ago
I fully agree that these alma maters shouldnt be fetishized. But this obsession is not without its merits either - some leadership positions are exclusively carved out of the ivy league bunch Things like Hedge fund CEOs and/or Presidents, Supreme Court Justices[1], Presidents and such. Europeans are not entirely devoid of some form of elitism either in picking their leaders.[2] [1] The Road to a Supreme Court Clerkship Starts at Three Ivy League Colleges The chances of obtaining a coveted clerkship, a new study found, increase sharply with undergraduate degrees from Harvard, Yale or Princeton. The justices themselves are products of elite educations. Eight of them attended law school at Harvard or Yale, and six of them have undergraduate degrees from Harvard, Yale or Princeton. And six of them had themselves served as law clerks at the Supreme Court. [2] Don’t Call Me Doktor German politicians are obsessed with earning Ph.D.s—but plagiarism scandals tend to catch up to them and derail careers. https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/04/germany-politics-higher-education-phd-merkel/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/04/germany-politics-higher...
aaron425 3y ago
Isn’t France heavily dominated by Les Grandes Ecoles & La Sorbonne?
- keiferski 3y ago
  Yes, and I don’t know why the OP thought otherwise. Most other European countries also have “elite” universities, even if they lack the gravitas of Harvard or Yale.
chrismcb 3y ago
Because some schools are better than others. They have better incoming students and better teachers. You claim the content of the education matters, well some schools have better content than others.
refurb 3y ago
In Europe nobody gives a shit if you graduated from, say, University of Frankfurt and not La Petit de Academy Francois Internatzionale. Nobody? I think what you mean is "nobody in the middle class cares". Clearly they are very prestigious universities in Europe (Sorbonne) that open doors other universities don't. What I've noticed in the US is that the middle class (and even lower) aspire to the top colleges. In Canada? Not as much.
- fho 3y ago
  Also: generalizing something for all of Europe is as about as useful as generalizing for the US. Both span a huge landmass with diverse populations, but often people generalize from their point of view to the whole.
  - user_named 3y ago
    US only has americans. Europe obviously has different nationalities so it is far more diverse. Poor analogy.
    - fho 3y ago
      I would argue that the US are large enough that the diversity in the in the population is more extreme than in a single European country. Yes, they all identify as (US) Americans, but if you compare e.g. California to Minnesota the difference is more comparable to Germany vs. Ukraine than two regions in Germany.
- bjourne 3y ago
  I work in academia and this is the first time I've heard about Sorbonne. I can guarantee you that if I asked 10 colleagues which is better, Sorbonne or Bordeaux (random French city), none would be able to answer with confidence. Maybe it is different in France, but outside of its borders, the name has not much value.
  - zeruch 3y ago
    I don't know where you work in academia, but even as an undergrad in the 90s, both hard and soft science majors at the UC system knew about the Sorbonne, and usually it was the first name people could mention outside of other US and UK institutions. After that you might have heard people mention Canadian options like McGill and Waterloo, and then MAYBE a handful of European options in Germany and Switzerland. But the Sorbonne was distinctly understood by a majority of peers for its status.
jasmer 3y ago
[dead]
P_I_Staker 3y ago
First of all, many of us don't. I will say I don't know those "brands". Are they both fairly major universities? The US has lots of universities, and I think there's less "lower tier" ones in Europe. In fact, I had family move to the US for it. These less prestigious schools, lower than state universities, which are often quite prestigious, have drastically lower entry standards. You quickly go from "needs a solid resume, with good academics, and participation in extracurriculars", to "accepts anyone". Just because a University accepts everyone, doesn't mean it's "bad". I went to a good university with loose entry; they'd let anyone flunk out after the first year. That said, we look heavily at "pedigree" in the US. You need top academics to get into university, and usually have to be somewhat talented to meritfully advance (and we know who succeeded by merits). With pedigree you look at someone's full lineage and accomplishments. In theory you should look at what someone did in university and all these impressive sounding companies, but too often they just look at the letterhead! I'm astonished by how reliably the "elite" are able to hold their position. In some cases, it doesn't even seem to make sense. For example there was this really insecure, power hungry kid for a Uni group, that wound up getting a pretty high position, quickly. He really clearly succeeded because of these insecurities, only to find that he was very wealthy. I've become increasingly aware how people at higher levels in software have money, and seem to rise to the level of their wealth. Even I do pretty well, and I'm the grandson of an accomplished chemical engineer. Yet so, many of my managers are just a couple rungs above me, proportional to their wealth. I've digressed, but I'd argue that in a country like the US, selecting based on pedigree, is not necessarily a bad decision. It's just shitty, discriminatory, even racist perhaps. Still, hiring the "elite" from society probably "works".
TechBro8615 3y ago
That's because Europe doesn't have as many world renowned institutions. And for the few that it does have, people absolutely care. There's a difference between EFPL and University of Delft, or Oxford and University of Southampton... If you don't believe me just look at where members of your government went to school.
snowpid 3y ago
I think it really depends on your major. In Business studies and Germany this is absolutely the case. Mannheim, St. Gallen, Milano, TUM. In CS in Germany this is not the case. There are better or worser schools but it is not a big thing. More important, github profiles, experience etc. For the Politicians I dont see a common pattern. There are diversity issues (rather male, mostly Lawyers or Political Scientist) but German politicians are quiet diverse by background. Example by chancellors Scholz: Rather worser law university Merkel: Good, but not best Eastern Germany University in physics. Schröder: From a very poor family, but rather good law university. Except Bucerius law school I am not aware of any university with lots of politicians aspirants. (And Bucerius is not that big) You see I was very bored for doing research.
FreshStart 3y ago
Because education is easy to copy and brand access is not. It's a status symbol, very expensive to uphold. Could also be a car for all it's worth

ipaddr 3y ago

People care about Oxford vs University of Bedfordshire. LMC Munich carries more weight than Hochschule der Wirtschaft für Management HdWM Mannheim

frozenport 3y ago

This isn't true. Sorbonne got you into the door of substantially higher paying finance jobs.

porknubbins 3y ago

American culture is almost entirely based on English not European culture. England historically was highly class based, heirarchical and had no revolution to upset the system. You might just as well attack Oxbridge. The Ivies are modern day route to preferment in presteige industries like big law and finance. Industries in which (for better or worse) US and UK firms are globally dominant. So it was less about education and more about training a ruling class.

mvncleaninst 3y ago
> American culture is almost entirely based on English not European culture. France also had a pretty strong influence on the founding fathers apparently. From what I've heard English are much nicer than we are
- cafard 3y ago
  The influence consisted of money, arms, and troops, for the most part. They learned some rhetoric from the French, but I don't think that the cultural influence was at all deep.
throwaway154 3y ago
Europe's far from one single entity in education systems, and social system that's part of. In France, for example, you're far more likely to get into a top university if you have a parent that's a teacher. I postulate here: the interdisciplinary learning system, vs. the Anglo subject focused system, that looks good on paper works out quite hard to find success in without knowing success in navigating it and putting the pieces together. In Germany, good luck becomming the CEO of a large company without the right breeding. It happens, but not a lot. There's turtles all the way down, from managing relationships with other stakeholders (i.e., knowing who runs them) to bank funding (funding from stock is less prevalent than Anglo, it's mainly debt funding, importance of Landesbanks). Screw the well qualified engineers, middle management will squash them sucking up the class divide at the top. Sweden, prized for community. "So fucking claustrophobic I had to leave", "curtains twitch, everyone watches each other", "if you don't conform to the system, you need to be strong" "a nice place to retire, possibly" not only one Swede has said to me on their experiences on getting out [emigrating], interestingly all from smaller southern towns. [Interestingly, 'Collectivism' being the flip-side of 'Individualism' can mean those on the 'outside' of the collective have a much harder time than when there's no, or a weak, collective. See [1] Geert-Hofstede 'Model of national culture']. Europe's very class based, it's less transparent, more insidious. [1] https://geerthofstede.com/culture-geert-hofstede-gert-jan-hofstede/6d-model-of-national-culture/ https://geerthofstede.com/culture-geert-hofstede-gert-jan-ho...

wozniacki 3y ago

I fully agree that these alma maters shouldnt be fetishized. But this obsession is not without its merits either - some leadership positions are exclusively carved out of the ivy league bunch Things like Hedge fund CEOs and/or Presidents, Supreme Court Justices[1], Presidents and such. Europeans are not entirely devoid of some form of elitism either in picking their leaders.[2] [1] The Road to a Supreme Court Clerkship Starts at Three Ivy League Colleges The chances of obtaining a coveted clerkship, a new study found, increase sharply with undergraduate degrees from Harvard, Yale or Princeton. The justices themselves are products of elite educations. Eight of them attended law school at Harvard or Yale, and six of them have undergraduate degrees from Harvard, Yale or Princeton. And six of them had themselves served as law clerks at the Supreme Court. [2] Don’t Call Me Doktor German politicians are obsessed with earning Ph.D.s—but plagiarism scandals tend to catch up to them and derail careers. https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/04/germany-politics-higher-education-phd-merkel/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/04/germany-politics-higher...

aaron425 3y ago

Isn’t France heavily dominated by Les Grandes Ecoles & La Sorbonne?

keiferski 3y ago
Yes, and I don’t know why the OP thought otherwise. Most other European countries also have “elite” universities, even if they lack the gravitas of Harvard or Yale.

chrismcb 3y ago

Because some schools are better than others. They have better incoming students and better teachers. You claim the content of the education matters, well some schools have better content than others.

refurb 3y ago

In Europe nobody gives a shit if you graduated from, say, University of Frankfurt and not La Petit de Academy Francois Internatzionale. Nobody? I think what you mean is "nobody in the middle class cares". Clearly they are very prestigious universities in Europe (Sorbonne) that open doors other universities don't. What I've noticed in the US is that the middle class (and even lower) aspire to the top colleges. In Canada? Not as much.

fho 3y ago
Also: generalizing something for all of Europe is as about as useful as generalizing for the US. Both span a huge landmass with diverse populations, but often people generalize from their point of view to the whole.
- user_named 3y ago
  US only has americans. Europe obviously has different nationalities so it is far more diverse. Poor analogy.
  - fho 3y ago
    I would argue that the US are large enough that the diversity in the in the population is more extreme than in a single European country. Yes, they all identify as (US) Americans, but if you compare e.g. California to Minnesota the difference is more comparable to Germany vs. Ukraine than two regions in Germany.
bjourne 3y ago
I work in academia and this is the first time I've heard about Sorbonne. I can guarantee you that if I asked 10 colleagues which is better, Sorbonne or Bordeaux (random French city), none would be able to answer with confidence. Maybe it is different in France, but outside of its borders, the name has not much value.
- zeruch 3y ago
  I don't know where you work in academia, but even as an undergrad in the 90s, both hard and soft science majors at the UC system knew about the Sorbonne, and usually it was the first name people could mention outside of other US and UK institutions. After that you might have heard people mention Canadian options like McGill and Waterloo, and then MAYBE a handful of European options in Germany and Switzerland. But the Sorbonne was distinctly understood by a majority of peers for its status.

jasmer 3y ago

[dead]

P_I_Staker 3y ago

First of all, many of us don't. I will say I don't know those "brands". Are they both fairly major universities? The US has lots of universities, and I think there's less "lower tier" ones in Europe. In fact, I had family move to the US for it. These less prestigious schools, lower than state universities, which are often quite prestigious, have drastically lower entry standards. You quickly go from "needs a solid resume, with good academics, and participation in extracurriculars", to "accepts anyone". Just because a University accepts everyone, doesn't mean it's "bad". I went to a good university with loose entry; they'd let anyone flunk out after the first year. That said, we look heavily at "pedigree" in the US. You need top academics to get into university, and usually have to be somewhat talented to meritfully advance (and we know who succeeded by merits). With pedigree you look at someone's full lineage and accomplishments. In theory you should look at what someone did in university and all these impressive sounding companies, but too often they just look at the letterhead! I'm astonished by how reliably the "elite" are able to hold their position. In some cases, it doesn't even seem to make sense. For example there was this really insecure, power hungry kid for a Uni group, that wound up getting a pretty high position, quickly. He really clearly succeeded because of these insecurities, only to find that he was very wealthy. I've become increasingly aware how people at higher levels in software have money, and seem to rise to the level of their wealth. Even I do pretty well, and I'm the grandson of an accomplished chemical engineer. Yet so, many of my managers are just a couple rungs above me, proportional to their wealth. I've digressed, but I'd argue that in a country like the US, selecting based on pedigree, is not necessarily a bad decision. It's just shitty, discriminatory, even racist perhaps. Still, hiring the "elite" from society probably "works".

TechBro8615 3y ago

That's because Europe doesn't have as many world renowned institutions. And for the few that it does have, people absolutely care. There's a difference between EFPL and University of Delft, or Oxford and University of Southampton... If you don't believe me just look at where members of your government went to school.

snowpid 3y ago

I think it really depends on your major. In Business studies and Germany this is absolutely the case. Mannheim, St. Gallen, Milano, TUM. In CS in Germany this is not the case. There are better or worser schools but it is not a big thing. More important, github profiles, experience etc. For the Politicians I dont see a common pattern. There are diversity issues (rather male, mostly Lawyers or Political Scientist) but German politicians are quiet diverse by background. Example by chancellors Scholz: Rather worser law university Merkel: Good, but not best Eastern Germany University in physics. Schröder: From a very poor family, but rather good law university. Except Bucerius law school I am not aware of any university with lots of politicians aspirants. (And Bucerius is not that big) You see I was very bored for doing research.

FreshStart 3y ago

Because education is easy to copy and brand access is not. It's a status symbol, very expensive to uphold. Could also be a car for all it's worth