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Unpopular opinion, but it’s not like these developers are getting nothing from Apple out of this. Apple runs the modern digital mall. They provide the space,

Unpopular opinion, but it’s not like these developers are getting nothing from Apple out of this. Apple runs the modern digital mall. They provide the space, the signage, the discovery, they even handle payment for you. Also, small indie developers are only being charged 15% until they exceed $1 million. So the 30% you always hear about are the big fish that can afford it anyway.

HDThoreaun 3y ago
Hey I'm not saying apple isn't providing value here, just that they're making unbelievable margins on the app store. Just guessing here but would not be surprised if just the app store ads cover all the app store expenses and then the 30% is pure profit.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  Credit card fees are somewhere between 0.5% and 2.8% So when do we start complaining about Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Spotify, etc. etc? They all take 30%+ margins on their platforms.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    I've been complaining about high margin service business for quiet a while now. The credit card business is especially problematic, we need to limit fees like the EU did asap.
  - ketralnis 3y ago
    Since forever? It turns out that more than one thing can be bad
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    Game consoles are even worse because you usually have to buy special developer kit hardware. As far as I’m aware only Xbox lets you switch to developer mode on standard hardware. Also Google takes the exact same cut on the Play Store and yet Apple is still the one that usually gets singled out.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      The top player is always the one singled out. For example, when people protest about excessive packaging for fast food packaging they protest McDonald's, not Burger King.
      - ribosometronome 3y ago
        Interestingly, that's not really what has happened here. In the Epic vs Apple case, iOS represented only 7% of Fortnite revenue while Playstation alone represented nearly 47%. All the platforms pretty much have 30% default markups, though. >Apple lawyers also took the dominance of consoles as a chance to ask why Epic Games has not sued Sony for the 30% fees it charges to Epic Games. (Sony is a major investor in Epic Games, and it recently put $200 million into the company.) Epic’s lawyers’ rebuttal was to point out the major differences between phones and game consoles, as well as the fact that Sony and Microsoft are more willing to negotiate than Apple. At one point, Sweeney said he would have taken a deal from Apple for lower commissions, if it had been offered. Sweeney also noted that most game consoles are sold at a loss and make money back from sales. Unlike phones, consoles are mainly used to play games. To Sweeney, this was a big reason why Sony and Microsoft’s fees are more palatable. Read more at: https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article251156384.html https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article251156384....
    - Gigachad 3y ago
      Because google lets you sideload. Even though almost no one actually does this, the option still exists in theory so you aren't forced to take googles offer.
      - lockhouse 3y ago
        > Because google lets you sideload. Even though almost no one actually does this Maybe its because 30% is a relatively small price to pay for the benefits of app stores versus trying to get users to manually install your app via side loading. Asking Apple to allow side loading and alternative app stores is like forcing Tesla to make a gasoline powered car.
  - what_ever 3y ago
    Whataboutism... You can't argue for one issue by saying what about this other issue.
  - olyjohn 3y ago
    We have been complaining about them!
gnicholas 3y ago
> They provide the space, the signage, the discovery Signage and discovery are a joke. The App Store is littered with garbage, and even when you search for an app by name, you often get unrelated apps for pages and pages before the real app. > Also, small indie developers are only being charged 15% until they exceed $1 million. So the 30% you always hear about are the big fish that can afford it anyway. This is a new development, which seems to have resulted only because of the pressure from regulators.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > This is a new development, which seems to have resulted only because of the pressure from regulators. The 15% was actually part of the settlement of the lawsuit Cameron, et al. v. Apple Inc.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    Thanks for the clarification — I thought it was due to soft pressure, but you're right it was hard pressure as you mention.
- guiltygods 3y ago
  > Signage and discovery are a joke. The App Store is littered with garbage, and even when you search for an app by name, you often get unrelated apps for pages and pages before the real app. That's what you get by making it is easy for anyone to develop and release apps. It is a very low barrier of entry. Almost anyone sitting at home can make an app and release it. If they release garbage to game the system and Apple blocks it, then there cries of draconian policies. Imagine the garbage that you will have to wade through when sideloading is forced upon them.
  - gochi 3y ago
    Somehow I have a hard time believing that the store being littered with junk comes from first timer app developers.
  - what_ever 3y ago
joejerryronnie 3y ago
Apple also controls all methods of transportation to the mall.
ketralnis 3y ago
They also run the local government and ban any other malls from existing. Nothing could be more rent-seeking.
- Dig1t 3y ago
  In this metaphor, another mall would be another platform, e.g. Android. Apple isn’t stopping anyone else from creating a new platform, though it does seem pretty difficult. See: Samsung, Huawei, BlackBerry, etc
  - slashdev 3y ago
    There are two malls, Apple and Android on different sides of town. Both have a high level of foot traffic. There's a wide river with only one rickety old bridge joining the two halves of the town. People on the one side of the town almost never go to the mall on the other side of town. So both malls have a monopoly on their side of the town, and you have no choice but to pick one or both malls to setup your store and sell your wares. Both charge incredibly high rents, but then what choice do you have? There's just the two malls, and nobody has successfully started another mall in a decade.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      Is it possible that on Android, where other malls have been permitted for a long time (and sideloading, too) - that there really just isn't much demand for another mall? Maybe they haven't been successful because nobody really wants to deal with another mall. Maybe this will be a complete no-op for Apple if they allow other app stores, too. If they allowed other app stores, I wouldn't make the move. I get a ton of value out of Apple's ecosystem, including - maybe especially - the ability to see what subscriptions I have and cancel them with a single click without even interacting with the app vendor. idk what they'd have to do to make me move over, but man, it'd have to be demonstrably valuable - not just the same thing but different 3 feet over that way. [edit] What if I told you Amazon had its own Android App Store, and literally nobody cares. [1] [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GP96AU3MQ58FMV8U https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
sneak 3y ago
Normal credit card processing is 1-3%. They are literally charging 10x market simply because they are the only game in town (due to bundling). They aren't providing 10x in value over basic card processing just by running the app store.
- epistasis 3y ago
  Are they a credit card processor, or are they a store? What do you think the margin is at the mall?
  - sneak 3y ago
    For IAPs? They are a card processor.
- ribosometronome 3y ago
  The only game town for what, though? Doing things on your iPhone? Most of the things Apple takes a 30% cut for are things that are very easy to do on other devices, it's just that people specifically want to do them on the iPhone. The most notable 30% case is with Fortnite but that's an excellent example of portability. There isn't really anything locking anyone to playing on iPhone except wanting to play on iPhone. Purchased skins and the like are all accessible regardless of where you purchase or play as long as it was linked to your Epic account.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    > The only game town for what, though? Doing things on your iPhone? Well, yes. There's only two generally available phone platforms and they both collude to take a 30% cut, so avoid that cut amounts to getting exculded from the largest computing platform used worldwide (except China)
summerlight 3y ago
If the number was something around 5~10%, your opinion would be more popular and I think Apple deserves that. But 30%, not so much.
jonplackett 3y ago
While the AppStore was a meritocracy I think this could be fair comment. Now that you can pay your way to the top with a shitty spammy app and outcompete a good quality less well funded app, because search and discover ability are absolutely dire, I don’t think it holds true. Being an indie developer used to be great. Now you just get a bit shafted by the system.
Gigachad 3y ago
For a small developer/company, it's a good deal. If you are the scale of something like Ikea and are perfectly capable of building your own building, attracting your own customers and managing your own payments, then it becomes a bad deal that you are forced in to accepting.
jliptzin 3y ago
Even 15% is too high. It's pretty hard as a developer to lop 30% or even 15% off your top line and still survive in a market that is already really competitive. That's why I got out about a decade ago. You have to spam the hell out of your users with ads and dark patterns and endless freemium tricks so that you can make back that Apple tax and then still have enough left over for an advertising budget and to pay the rest of the bills. If you don't, then your competitors are doing it and they'll have a larger advertising budget and you'll eventually be pushed out. That's why you see so much shit on the app store. The good apps are usually from companies that already have a successful standalone business somewhere else (either physical or a web presence) and don't need to squeeze every last drop of revenue from their apps. I still don't understand how they got away with it in the first place, what if Microsoft said they are entitled to 30% of all revenue generated by all Windows applications?
tqkxzugoaupvwqr 3y ago
It’s a scam. You are required to pay Apple for a developer account. You are required to hand over 15%/30% of revenue for the lifetime of your app. You are bullied into paying Apple for App Store search ads or else someone else will take the number one spot even if the search query matches exactly your app name. Then you have to buy multiple generations of Apple hardware to test your app in different OS versions. And then Apple has the audacity to allow plain subscription scams in the App Store but bullies you in the app submission process for trivial things or rejects your app because the reviewer just didn’t read any provided instructions because they only have a few minutes per app review.

HDThoreaun 3y ago

Hey I'm not saying apple isn't providing value here, just that they're making unbelievable margins on the app store. Just guessing here but would not be surprised if just the app store ads cover all the app store expenses and then the 30% is pure profit.

jbverschoor 3y ago
Credit card fees are somewhere between 0.5% and 2.8% So when do we start complaining about Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Spotify, etc. etc? They all take 30%+ margins on their platforms.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  I've been complaining about high margin service business for quiet a while now. The credit card business is especially problematic, we need to limit fees like the EU did asap.
- ketralnis 3y ago
  Since forever? It turns out that more than one thing can be bad
- lockhouse 3y ago
  Game consoles are even worse because you usually have to buy special developer kit hardware. As far as I’m aware only Xbox lets you switch to developer mode on standard hardware. Also Google takes the exact same cut on the Play Store and yet Apple is still the one that usually gets singled out.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    The top player is always the one singled out. For example, when people protest about excessive packaging for fast food packaging they protest McDonald's, not Burger King.
    - ribosometronome 3y ago
      Interestingly, that's not really what has happened here. In the Epic vs Apple case, iOS represented only 7% of Fortnite revenue while Playstation alone represented nearly 47%. All the platforms pretty much have 30% default markups, though. >Apple lawyers also took the dominance of consoles as a chance to ask why Epic Games has not sued Sony for the 30% fees it charges to Epic Games. (Sony is a major investor in Epic Games, and it recently put $200 million into the company.) Epic’s lawyers’ rebuttal was to point out the major differences between phones and game consoles, as well as the fact that Sony and Microsoft are more willing to negotiate than Apple. At one point, Sweeney said he would have taken a deal from Apple for lower commissions, if it had been offered. Sweeney also noted that most game consoles are sold at a loss and make money back from sales. Unlike phones, consoles are mainly used to play games. To Sweeney, this was a big reason why Sony and Microsoft’s fees are more palatable. Read more at: https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article251156384.html https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article251156384....
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    Because google lets you sideload. Even though almost no one actually does this, the option still exists in theory so you aren't forced to take googles offer.
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      > Because google lets you sideload. Even though almost no one actually does this Maybe its because 30% is a relatively small price to pay for the benefits of app stores versus trying to get users to manually install your app via side loading. Asking Apple to allow side loading and alternative app stores is like forcing Tesla to make a gasoline powered car.
- what_ever 3y ago
  Whataboutism... You can't argue for one issue by saying what about this other issue.
- olyjohn 3y ago
  We have been complaining about them!

gnicholas 3y ago

> They provide the space, the signage, the discovery Signage and discovery are a joke. The App Store is littered with garbage, and even when you search for an app by name, you often get unrelated apps for pages and pages before the real app. > Also, small indie developers are only being charged 15% until they exceed $1 million. So the 30% you always hear about are the big fish that can afford it anyway. This is a new development, which seems to have resulted only because of the pressure from regulators.

lapcat 3y ago
> This is a new development, which seems to have resulted only because of the pressure from regulators. The 15% was actually part of the settlement of the lawsuit Cameron, et al. v. Apple Inc.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Thanks for the clarification — I thought it was due to soft pressure, but you're right it was hard pressure as you mention.
guiltygods 3y ago
> Signage and discovery are a joke. The App Store is littered with garbage, and even when you search for an app by name, you often get unrelated apps for pages and pages before the real app. That's what you get by making it is easy for anyone to develop and release apps. It is a very low barrier of entry. Almost anyone sitting at home can make an app and release it. If they release garbage to game the system and Apple blocks it, then there cries of draconian policies. Imagine the garbage that you will have to wade through when sideloading is forced upon them.
- gochi 3y ago
  Somehow I have a hard time believing that the store being littered with junk comes from first timer app developers.
- what_ever 3y ago

joejerryronnie 3y ago

Apple also controls all methods of transportation to the mall.

ketralnis 3y ago

They also run the local government and ban any other malls from existing. Nothing could be more rent-seeking.

Dig1t 3y ago
In this metaphor, another mall would be another platform, e.g. Android. Apple isn’t stopping anyone else from creating a new platform, though it does seem pretty difficult. See: Samsung, Huawei, BlackBerry, etc
- slashdev 3y ago
  There are two malls, Apple and Android on different sides of town. Both have a high level of foot traffic. There's a wide river with only one rickety old bridge joining the two halves of the town. People on the one side of the town almost never go to the mall on the other side of town. So both malls have a monopoly on their side of the town, and you have no choice but to pick one or both malls to setup your store and sell your wares. Both charge incredibly high rents, but then what choice do you have? There's just the two malls, and nobody has successfully started another mall in a decade.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Is it possible that on Android, where other malls have been permitted for a long time (and sideloading, too) - that there really just isn't much demand for another mall? Maybe they haven't been successful because nobody really wants to deal with another mall. Maybe this will be a complete no-op for Apple if they allow other app stores, too. If they allowed other app stores, I wouldn't make the move. I get a ton of value out of Apple's ecosystem, including - maybe especially - the ability to see what subscriptions I have and cancel them with a single click without even interacting with the app vendor. idk what they'd have to do to make me move over, but man, it'd have to be demonstrably valuable - not just the same thing but different 3 feet over that way. [edit] What if I told you Amazon had its own Android App Store, and literally nobody cares. [1] [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GP96AU3MQ58FMV8U https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...

sneak 3y ago

Normal credit card processing is 1-3%. They are literally charging 10x market simply because they are the only game in town (due to bundling). They aren't providing 10x in value over basic card processing just by running the app store.

epistasis 3y ago
Are they a credit card processor, or are they a store? What do you think the margin is at the mall?
- sneak 3y ago
  For IAPs? They are a card processor.
ribosometronome 3y ago
The only game town for what, though? Doing things on your iPhone? Most of the things Apple takes a 30% cut for are things that are very easy to do on other devices, it's just that people specifically want to do them on the iPhone. The most notable 30% case is with Fortnite but that's an excellent example of portability. There isn't really anything locking anyone to playing on iPhone except wanting to play on iPhone. Purchased skins and the like are all accessible regardless of where you purchase or play as long as it was linked to your Epic account.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  > The only game town for what, though? Doing things on your iPhone? Well, yes. There's only two generally available phone platforms and they both collude to take a 30% cut, so avoid that cut amounts to getting exculded from the largest computing platform used worldwide (except China)

summerlight 3y ago

If the number was something around 5~10%, your opinion would be more popular and I think Apple deserves that. But 30%, not so much.

jonplackett 3y ago

While the AppStore was a meritocracy I think this could be fair comment. Now that you can pay your way to the top with a shitty spammy app and outcompete a good quality less well funded app, because search and discover ability are absolutely dire, I don’t think it holds true. Being an indie developer used to be great. Now you just get a bit shafted by the system.

Gigachad 3y ago

For a small developer/company, it's a good deal. If you are the scale of something like Ikea and are perfectly capable of building your own building, attracting your own customers and managing your own payments, then it becomes a bad deal that you are forced in to accepting.

jliptzin 3y ago

Even 15% is too high. It's pretty hard as a developer to lop 30% or even 15% off your top line and still survive in a market that is already really competitive. That's why I got out about a decade ago. You have to spam the hell out of your users with ads and dark patterns and endless freemium tricks so that you can make back that Apple tax and then still have enough left over for an advertising budget and to pay the rest of the bills. If you don't, then your competitors are doing it and they'll have a larger advertising budget and you'll eventually be pushed out. That's why you see so much shit on the app store. The good apps are usually from companies that already have a successful standalone business somewhere else (either physical or a web presence) and don't need to squeeze every last drop of revenue from their apps. I still don't understand how they got away with it in the first place, what if Microsoft said they are entitled to 30% of all revenue generated by all Windows applications?

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 3y ago

It’s a scam. You are required to pay Apple for a developer account. You are required to hand over 15%/30% of revenue for the lifetime of your app. You are bullied into paying Apple for App Store search ads or else someone else will take the number one spot even if the search query matches exactly your app name. Then you have to buy multiple generations of Apple hardware to test your app in different OS versions. And then Apple has the audacity to allow plain subscription scams in the App Store but bullies you in the app submission process for trivial things or rejects your app because the reviewer just didn’t read any provided instructions because they only have a few minutes per app review.