5 ms·

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

technothrasher 3y ago
This market already exists for things like enabling Navigation on VW/Audi cars. People were offering to enable the hidden Android Auto support on my Porsche Macan for $600, which I almost went for until I found the scripts and instructions to do it myself.
- jxf 3y ago
  Hidden as in it's not available normally, or hidden as in it's a paid feature?
  - avree 3y ago
    It was built, and then disabled, as Porsche wasn't comfortable with Google's policies around data collection from Android Auto. You can pretty easily figure out how to turn it back on.
- mgiampapa 3y ago
  I did the same on a Mazda CX5 a few years back, but it was a software only hack to get root first. I suspect the actual physical hardware modification line is the one that most users are going to be unwilling to cross unless they are in the "Download a Car" crowd.
  - harshalizee 3y ago
    Doesn't the Mazda CX-5s all ship with Android Auto and Apple Carplay by default?
    - mgiampapa 3y ago
      2016 Didn't, I also enabled the built in navigation while I was at it.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > I suspect the actual physical hardware modification line is the one that most users are going to be unwilling to cross unless they are in the "Download a Car" crowd. Idk, hardware modification of the first Playstation that allowed to play ripped games became mainstream very quickly in my country (France) and you could even go to some shops that sold Playstations to get it done. It only stopped when it was made openly illegal. “I paid for this shit, I do what I want with it” is a very powerful sentiment (and a legitimate one actually: corporation adding “Digital Right Management” system to deprive people from their property right is dystopian as hell).
    - acer589 3y ago
      Okay, but in that PlayStation example you DIDN'T pay for the games, but still decided to 'do what you want'. How is that legitimate but attempting to prevent it not?
      - filoleg 3y ago
        Because you also prevent legitimate uses of such "feature", such as playing games you purchased legitimately from other regions, as that "feature" also allows to defeat region-locking. As for why not just buy those same game versions released in your region, some games were just never released in some regions. Another common use is running legitimate homebrew software. So logically, it isn't modding/unlocking the console itself that's illegitimate. But it can be used for certain illegitimate actions, yes (along with legitimate ones).
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        This, or you want to have a backup of your disk because your younger brother isn't especially gentle, or you want to have a second copy of your game so that you can have one at Dad's home and one at Mom's. And these use-cases aren't only legitimate, in France they are even legal and in exchange we pay a tax whenever we buy a media storage device (Taxe sur la copie privée).
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
- BonoboIO 3y ago
  $600 is not cheap. What model year do you have? Does Porsche not provide an update or possibility to upgrade.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    If you're in the market for a recent Porsche, which go for let's say ~$100k, $600 is cheap to you. Cheaper than the time you'd spend on doing it yourself really, but doing it yourself is half the fun.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    If $600 is something you have to think about, you should never own a Porsche. If you can't afford to maintain an expensive car, you can't afford to purchase an expensive car.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      > If you can't afford to maintain an expensive car, you can't afford to purchase an expensive car. Depends on how you acquire it. I can get a couple BMW's for cheap to free but I've heard too many repair stories around the campfile to blind dive into that particular rabbit hole.
    - huganabaga 3y ago
      [dead]
- robterrell 3y ago
  This is how I got CarPlay on the used BMW I bought. Gave some guy in Thailand my VIN and $60, he sent me firmware to install, and now I drive around with working CarPlay and the vague notion that I've maybe been p0wned in ways I don't fully understand.
  - knodi123 3y ago
    When your car idles, it's contributing to his Folding@Home account rank
    - TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
      More likely it’s mining crypto.
    - jjkaczor 3y ago
      Heh... or mining coins... or these days, factoring LLM's...
    - tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
      Simpler times.
  - nobleach 3y ago
    Wait, CarPlay is a "premium" feature on a BMW?
    - greenthrow 3y ago
      On older models. Current models come with it.
      - filoleg 3y ago
        Current ones instead charge you a recurring subscription for seat heating, right?
no_wizard 3y ago
The only hack on cable style TV I remember is you could buy modified satellite authentication cards for DirectTV for a time - usually on eBay or similar sites - and they worked. No idea how long, I had an uncle that had one though, got all the premium channels etc. I doubt any of this works anymore though
- fragmede 3y ago
  If you want a rabbit hole, start with Christopher Tarnovsky at Defcon https://www.wired.com/2008/05/tarnovsky/ https://www.wired.com/2008/05/tarnovsky/
  - darkclouds 3y ago
    The dragon cam. https://www.kustompcs.co.uk/components/interface-cards/tv-tuners/dragon-t.rex-cam-module/ https://www.kustompcs.co.uk/components/interface-cards/tv-tu...
- bonestamp2 3y ago
  I remember being out for a beer run with a friend during these days. On the way there he pulls into a parking lot and stops in front of a nail salon. He said, "Come on" and I followed him into the nail salon. There were about 10 women in there, not a guy in sight... he goes up to the desk and pushes a button that looks like a doorbell. One of the ladies doing the nails says, "He no work here no more, check dry cleaner across the street." We get back in the car and I'm like, "What was that all about?". "My DirecTV card got disabled and that's where I get it reprogrammed". We go across the street to the Dry Cleaners. There are three ladies in the lobby watching TV, and a guy behind the counter. He asks the man, "Is Ken here?" The man says, "I'll check" as he walks into the back. Now, the man was coming from the back when we came in, so I assume he already knows if Ken is there or not, but Ken probably only comes out if he recognizes my friend. Sure enough, Ken comes right out all smiles and they have a quick chat. My friend hands over his card and Ken says, "we had to get new equipment, it's now $100, ATM next door". Ken disappears for about 10 minutes and comes back. My friend gives him cash and away we went. About 4 months later, he had to get it reprogrammed again.
rebolek 3y ago
Let me tell you what's wrong with this: Nothing.
- kevincox 3y ago
  I think it is slightly more complicated than this. Removing these "artificial" locks raises the price of the base model. This can lead to people on a tighter budget from being able to afford it at all. For this particular instance I don't feel too bad for a number of reasons: 1. Tesla is a luxury product so people on a tight budget will likely find a better value solution elsewhere. 2. The way these locks are implemented greatly restricts user freedom on the whole car so they see somewhat unethical to me. But in general I believe that making one model and artificially locking it can be ethical. It is just taking advantage of economy of scale (by only making one model) without removing your base price point.
bri3d 3y ago
This has already been the case on European navigation systems (Audi and VW MMI/MIB) for many years now. VW Audi Group developed an entire infrastructure called SWaP (Software as a Product) and FEC (Feature Enable Codes) many years ago, and ever since, there has been a cottage industry in bypassing the system to enable features like CarPlay, Navigation, and Performance Monitor which are usually locked by software trim levels.
- hunter2_ 3y ago
  It's always awesome seeing your comments about VW stuff. I've been using VCDS over 10 years now with nothing but various trims of Golfs for even longer than that. Luckily my Mk7 R came with all the FECs I'd ever want, stock! The secret menu doesn't show anything interesting in the diff between supported and installed. Do you think there will ever be ECU/TCU tunes maintained as open source projects? Maybe not quite as user-friendly as the Cobb ecosystem and the like, but good enough to make $600+ tunes a thing of the past for DIY types who are into mucking about but want the peace of mind that comes with using maps that enough other people are already using? Not that tuners shouldn't be paid for their work, but I feel like they could focus on the custom tune segment and be ok. My current understanding is that free software exists (I haven't actually played with any myself yet, but I've heard of TunerPro, WinOLS, etc. and I see you maintain VW_Flash, very cool) but then the user needs to know how to create a custom tune from scratch, no free and widely used "off the shelf" / "staged" files floating around for common cars (the main value proposition of APR, EQT, IE, UM, etc.), correct?
  - bri3d 3y ago
    All of the tools needed to do this are already there. However, maintaining this kind of project would be a thankless task riddled with bad users, regulatory/legal issues, and isn't likely to build a strong community for various reasons, so I don't think anyone has been highly incentivized to do it.
mrguyorama 3y ago
Internal employee controls have gotten way more sophisticated, and cared about since it's one of the things you need to do for business focused information security.
- Prickle 3y ago
  This is true, but if I remember correctly, Apple has a very similar issue with user locked devices. Employees have opened their own "stores", where they remove activation locks, or unlock iphones remotely for a small fee.
bonestamp2 3y ago
Be careful though, some automakers are tracking software mods and voiding warranties. Example: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/beware-dodge-challenger-mods-dodge-confirms-popular-mod-leaves-permanent-mark-voiding-warranties/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/beware-dodge-challenger-mods-do...
- Faaak 3y ago
  I don't think how that could work with the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act ?
  - bonestamp2 3y ago
    Good point. There is an exception in that act that allows the warrantor to waive coverage if the damage was caused by the consumer, so I guess Dodge can do it because the software mod in that case is causing the vehicle to perform outside of its design envelope. The warranty only covers manufacturer defects, and forcing the vehicle to do something it's not intended to do is not a defect. So, I guess these Tesla hacks should be fine so long as they're only enabling things that the vehicle has been designed to do.
- rconti 3y ago
  One advantage of having blown through the warranty on my Tesla already! On the other hand, I don't think my car has any unlocked features I want. I mean, I didn't pay for FSD / Autopilot but I'm not sure I'd use either.
awad 3y ago
Mod chips for consoles and mod chips for cars don't seem too dissimilar
sleepybrett 3y ago
I had a friend that made a tidy sum in college by selling replacement chips for high end cars that overrode some governors built into the firmware.
berniedurfee 3y ago
And gray market chips you could swap into your US Robotics Sportster modem for dual standard 56k baud compatibility!
progman32 3y ago
I unlocked a whole extra gallon on my i3's fuel tank (just about doubling its capacity) just by poking it with a computer, there's definitely people around willing to pay for this service.
- throwaway894589 3y ago
  This is because if the gas range was longer than the EV range it wouldn't qualify for the US federal EV tax rebate so BMW software limited the range. In europe it's not limited.

technothrasher 3y ago

This market already exists for things like enabling Navigation on VW/Audi cars. People were offering to enable the hidden Android Auto support on my Porsche Macan for $600, which I almost went for until I found the scripts and instructions to do it myself.

jxf 3y ago
Hidden as in it's not available normally, or hidden as in it's a paid feature?
- avree 3y ago
  It was built, and then disabled, as Porsche wasn't comfortable with Google's policies around data collection from Android Auto. You can pretty easily figure out how to turn it back on.
mgiampapa 3y ago
I did the same on a Mazda CX5 a few years back, but it was a software only hack to get root first. I suspect the actual physical hardware modification line is the one that most users are going to be unwilling to cross unless they are in the "Download a Car" crowd.
- harshalizee 3y ago
  Doesn't the Mazda CX-5s all ship with Android Auto and Apple Carplay by default?
  - mgiampapa 3y ago
    2016 Didn't, I also enabled the built in navigation while I was at it.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > I suspect the actual physical hardware modification line is the one that most users are going to be unwilling to cross unless they are in the "Download a Car" crowd. Idk, hardware modification of the first Playstation that allowed to play ripped games became mainstream very quickly in my country (France) and you could even go to some shops that sold Playstations to get it done. It only stopped when it was made openly illegal. “I paid for this shit, I do what I want with it” is a very powerful sentiment (and a legitimate one actually: corporation adding “Digital Right Management” system to deprive people from their property right is dystopian as hell).
  - acer589 3y ago
    Okay, but in that PlayStation example you DIDN'T pay for the games, but still decided to 'do what you want'. How is that legitimate but attempting to prevent it not?
    - filoleg 3y ago
      Because you also prevent legitimate uses of such "feature", such as playing games you purchased legitimately from other regions, as that "feature" also allows to defeat region-locking. As for why not just buy those same game versions released in your region, some games were just never released in some regions. Another common use is running legitimate homebrew software. So logically, it isn't modding/unlocking the console itself that's illegitimate. But it can be used for certain illegitimate actions, yes (along with legitimate ones).
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        This, or you want to have a backup of your disk because your younger brother isn't especially gentle, or you want to have a second copy of your game so that you can have one at Dad's home and one at Mom's. And these use-cases aren't only legitimate, in France they are even legal and in exchange we pay a tax whenever we buy a media storage device (Taxe sur la copie privée).
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
BonoboIO 3y ago
$600 is not cheap. What model year do you have? Does Porsche not provide an update or possibility to upgrade.
- fragmede 3y ago
  If you're in the market for a recent Porsche, which go for let's say ~$100k, $600 is cheap to you. Cheaper than the time you'd spend on doing it yourself really, but doing it yourself is half the fun.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  If $600 is something you have to think about, you should never own a Porsche. If you can't afford to maintain an expensive car, you can't afford to purchase an expensive car.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > If you can't afford to maintain an expensive car, you can't afford to purchase an expensive car. Depends on how you acquire it. I can get a couple BMW's for cheap to free but I've heard too many repair stories around the campfile to blind dive into that particular rabbit hole.
  - huganabaga 3y ago
    [dead]
robterrell 3y ago
This is how I got CarPlay on the used BMW I bought. Gave some guy in Thailand my VIN and $60, he sent me firmware to install, and now I drive around with working CarPlay and the vague notion that I've maybe been p0wned in ways I don't fully understand.
- knodi123 3y ago
  When your car idles, it's contributing to his Folding@Home account rank
  - TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
    More likely it’s mining crypto.
  - jjkaczor 3y ago
    Heh... or mining coins... or these days, factoring LLM's...
  - tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
    Simpler times.
- nobleach 3y ago
  Wait, CarPlay is a "premium" feature on a BMW?
  - greenthrow 3y ago
    On older models. Current models come with it.
    - filoleg 3y ago
      Current ones instead charge you a recurring subscription for seat heating, right?

no_wizard 3y ago

The only hack on cable style TV I remember is you could buy modified satellite authentication cards for DirectTV for a time - usually on eBay or similar sites - and they worked. No idea how long, I had an uncle that had one though, got all the premium channels etc. I doubt any of this works anymore though

fragmede 3y ago
If you want a rabbit hole, start with Christopher Tarnovsky at Defcon https://www.wired.com/2008/05/tarnovsky/ https://www.wired.com/2008/05/tarnovsky/
- darkclouds 3y ago
  The dragon cam. https://www.kustompcs.co.uk/components/interface-cards/tv-tuners/dragon-t.rex-cam-module/ https://www.kustompcs.co.uk/components/interface-cards/tv-tu...
bonestamp2 3y ago
I remember being out for a beer run with a friend during these days. On the way there he pulls into a parking lot and stops in front of a nail salon. He said, "Come on" and I followed him into the nail salon. There were about 10 women in there, not a guy in sight... he goes up to the desk and pushes a button that looks like a doorbell. One of the ladies doing the nails says, "He no work here no more, check dry cleaner across the street." We get back in the car and I'm like, "What was that all about?". "My DirecTV card got disabled and that's where I get it reprogrammed". We go across the street to the Dry Cleaners. There are three ladies in the lobby watching TV, and a guy behind the counter. He asks the man, "Is Ken here?" The man says, "I'll check" as he walks into the back. Now, the man was coming from the back when we came in, so I assume he already knows if Ken is there or not, but Ken probably only comes out if he recognizes my friend. Sure enough, Ken comes right out all smiles and they have a quick chat. My friend hands over his card and Ken says, "we had to get new equipment, it's now $100, ATM next door". Ken disappears for about 10 minutes and comes back. My friend gives him cash and away we went. About 4 months later, he had to get it reprogrammed again.

rebolek 3y ago

Let me tell you what's wrong with this: Nothing.

kevincox 3y ago
I think it is slightly more complicated than this. Removing these "artificial" locks raises the price of the base model. This can lead to people on a tighter budget from being able to afford it at all. For this particular instance I don't feel too bad for a number of reasons: 1. Tesla is a luxury product so people on a tight budget will likely find a better value solution elsewhere. 2. The way these locks are implemented greatly restricts user freedom on the whole car so they see somewhat unethical to me. But in general I believe that making one model and artificially locking it can be ethical. It is just taking advantage of economy of scale (by only making one model) without removing your base price point.

bri3d 3y ago

This has already been the case on European navigation systems (Audi and VW MMI/MIB) for many years now. VW Audi Group developed an entire infrastructure called SWaP (Software as a Product) and FEC (Feature Enable Codes) many years ago, and ever since, there has been a cottage industry in bypassing the system to enable features like CarPlay, Navigation, and Performance Monitor which are usually locked by software trim levels.

hunter2_ 3y ago
It's always awesome seeing your comments about VW stuff. I've been using VCDS over 10 years now with nothing but various trims of Golfs for even longer than that. Luckily my Mk7 R came with all the FECs I'd ever want, stock! The secret menu doesn't show anything interesting in the diff between supported and installed. Do you think there will ever be ECU/TCU tunes maintained as open source projects? Maybe not quite as user-friendly as the Cobb ecosystem and the like, but good enough to make $600+ tunes a thing of the past for DIY types who are into mucking about but want the peace of mind that comes with using maps that enough other people are already using? Not that tuners shouldn't be paid for their work, but I feel like they could focus on the custom tune segment and be ok. My current understanding is that free software exists (I haven't actually played with any myself yet, but I've heard of TunerPro, WinOLS, etc. and I see you maintain VW_Flash, very cool) but then the user needs to know how to create a custom tune from scratch, no free and widely used "off the shelf" / "staged" files floating around for common cars (the main value proposition of APR, EQT, IE, UM, etc.), correct?
- bri3d 3y ago
  All of the tools needed to do this are already there. However, maintaining this kind of project would be a thankless task riddled with bad users, regulatory/legal issues, and isn't likely to build a strong community for various reasons, so I don't think anyone has been highly incentivized to do it.

mrguyorama 3y ago

Internal employee controls have gotten way more sophisticated, and cared about since it's one of the things you need to do for business focused information security.

Prickle 3y ago
This is true, but if I remember correctly, Apple has a very similar issue with user locked devices. Employees have opened their own "stores", where they remove activation locks, or unlock iphones remotely for a small fee.

bonestamp2 3y ago

Be careful though, some automakers are tracking software mods and voiding warranties. Example: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/beware-dodge-challenger-mods-dodge-confirms-popular-mod-leaves-permanent-mark-voiding-warranties/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/beware-dodge-challenger-mods-do...

Faaak 3y ago
I don't think how that could work with the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act ?
- bonestamp2 3y ago
  Good point. There is an exception in that act that allows the warrantor to waive coverage if the damage was caused by the consumer, so I guess Dodge can do it because the software mod in that case is causing the vehicle to perform outside of its design envelope. The warranty only covers manufacturer defects, and forcing the vehicle to do something it's not intended to do is not a defect. So, I guess these Tesla hacks should be fine so long as they're only enabling things that the vehicle has been designed to do.
rconti 3y ago
One advantage of having blown through the warranty on my Tesla already! On the other hand, I don't think my car has any unlocked features I want. I mean, I didn't pay for FSD / Autopilot but I'm not sure I'd use either.

awad 3y ago

Mod chips for consoles and mod chips for cars don't seem too dissimilar

sleepybrett 3y ago

I had a friend that made a tidy sum in college by selling replacement chips for high end cars that overrode some governors built into the firmware.

berniedurfee 3y ago

And gray market chips you could swap into your US Robotics Sportster modem for dual standard 56k baud compatibility!

progman32 3y ago

I unlocked a whole extra gallon on my i3's fuel tank (just about doubling its capacity) just by poking it with a computer, there's definitely people around willing to pay for this service.

throwaway894589 3y ago
This is because if the gas range was longer than the EV range it wouldn't qualify for the US federal EV tax rebate so BMW software limited the range. In europe it's not limited.