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If it could only reduce the weight of current EVs that would be a win. Most electric vehicles weight 1000 lbs or more than their ICE counterparts, and in the ex

If it could only reduce the weight of current EVs that would be a win. Most electric vehicles weight 1000 lbs or more than their ICE counterparts, and in the extreme case of the Hummer, the total weight is over 9000 lbs. Vehicles seem to be continuously ballooning in size, so whether that continues or eventual legislation forces more reasonable sizes, higher energy density would be very welcome.

warble 3y ago
Yes this is the real win. Lighter smaller batteries. Better efficiency and easier to design around for safety and maintenance.
- hnick 3y ago
  If it allows a smaller and cheaper battery (hopefully in the longer term, less size = less expense) then it should make lower capacity small city EV runabouts more attractive. Right now the price floor is unattractive. Many households have two cars, one for errands and one for work/travel, so if that's true it helps on both accounts.
hamandcheese 3y ago
When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.
- majormajor 3y ago
  Are there any EVs with Honda Civic or Accord or BMW 2 series weight? E.g. <3500lb? Even a Leaf seems to start at 3500lbs now.
  - qdog 3y ago
    The Mini Electric is down there. Weighs more than gas, and one of the reasons it isn't long range, would push up the weight too much. The current generation of battery tech is just a little heavier than would be competitive to ICE on weight. Gasoline holds a lot more energy than a battery can, but the engine is heavier. If/when battery density is able to double (and this solid state tech is 2x-3x current battery, so it would be a game-changer), you would have very similar car weights. This seems to be one of the reasons the big trucks are first, adding a thousand pounds to a 6000 lb. truck isn't as bad as adding that to a car half the weight. I expect we will eventually see vehicles that weight less than the ICE counterpart that get a reasonable range, but hard to say when battery tech advances that much.
  - morepork 3y ago
    BYD Dolphin is 1285-1450 kg depending on which options you pick, which is in that range
- blinkingled 3y ago
  Maybe the S3 can afford to add more insulation compared to the Model 3? I mean Teslas aren't known for good road noise isolation so if they do reduce battery weight they can add some more for the insulation for example.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Whereas Audi are known for excellent noise isolation, road, engine, to the point that in some models they pipe in engine noise because it's almost too isolated.
- lastofthemojito 3y ago
  I feel like that's quite a stretch of the word comparable. The Model 3 is 14% heavier than the Audi: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2=401958030 https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2... And the Ioniq5 is 35% heavier than the RAV4: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401958795&veh2=401961788 https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401958795&veh2...
  - kube-system 3y ago
    And the Audi is already on the heavier side for vehicles of that size. Mainstream non-'luxury' sedans of comparable size are often 3200-3300, like Accord/Camry/Altima, and the construction of these vehicles is a more equal comparison.
    - disiplus 3y ago
      S3 is heavy because it has 4wd and a bigger everything compared to a lower trim model. The same as the vw golf 8 starts at 1300kg, but my R model is in the 1500 range because it has 4wd and other things like adaptive damping that make it heavy
      - kube-system 3y ago
        AWD is available on the Camry for an 86kg penalty. But yes, every part adds weight. That's why Teslas have spartan interiors and less noise deadening than other vehicles in the price range, they're spending as much weight as possible on the batteries and not the rest of the car.
  - mohaine 3y ago
    From Google: Model 3: 3,862 to 4,048 lbs Audi S3: 3,527 lbs 9-14% seems comparable IMO and worst case roughly half he mentioned 1000 lbs.
    - disiplus 3y ago
      The difference is around 250kg. Witch is a lot for a small car. My source is adac. But if you don't go to a S3 and are OK with regular A3 with smaller engine those start at 1300 kg.
- iamatworknow 3y ago
  I always bought into this "meme", in part because just about every EV review I've seen mentions having to compensate for the extra weight which makes those cars less performant at times, so decided to look it up based on your quoted vehicles here, and figured I'd save anyone else the same search: A 2023 Rav 4 has a curb weight of between 3615 and 3775 lb [1] A 2023 Ioniq 5 has a curb weight of between 3968 and 4663 lb [2] So a difference of between 193 and 1048 pounds between the two. That's actually a lot less than I expected, at least on the low end. 193 pounds is basically equivalent to just having one extra person in the car. As noted in replies, though, these _do_ take into account different drive trains, so the comparison is not not great from the start. [1] https://www.toyota.com/rav4/2023/features/mpg_other_price/4437/4448/4530 https://www.toyota.com/rav4/2023/features/mpg_other_price/44... [2] https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/ioniq-5/compare-specs https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/ioniq-5/compare-sp...
  - ultrarunner 3y ago
    Not to devolve into splitting hairs, but your minimum range is comparing the heaviest premium AWD ICE vehicle to the FWD-only standard model electric, and the electric is still heavier.
    - iamatworknow 3y ago
      Yeah, I missed that there were the two lines for the Ioniq 5 weight based on the drivetrain, and a column that was not obviously hidden with my window size, my bad.
  - arh68 3y ago
    Your numbers seem off... Base models: 3,370 vs 3,968. Flagship models: 3,800 vs 4,663. So 600-850 lbs differential. Not 1,000, but not just an extra person. To be fair, the Hyundai does seem larger (12" longer wheelbase).
    - iamatworknow 3y ago
      Yeah...I messed up. Damn window size and two different drivetrains for the Ioniq. Side note, web design sucks.
- toddmorey 3y ago
  It’s not a meme. Battery electric powertrains are heavier than ICE + fuel equivalents.
- ultrarunner 3y ago
  The Audi is 3,527 lbs, where the Model 3 is 4,048 lbs. The Tesla is a bit longer and narrower, but they're both big cars. The Rav4 FWD is 3370 lbs, where the Ionic 5 standard range FWD is about 4,000 lbs (the SEL is 4,300). If the best examples are "only 500-700 lbs heavier" I think there is still room for progress. Rounded, that's the rough 1000 lbs I suggested above. Electric cars are, in aggregate, simply heavier right now— with implications for crash safety for everyone (especially those outside that vehicle). Any progress toward increasing energy density (and vehicle size) will confer a net benefit to society.
  - daddylongstroke 3y ago
    ...a net benefit to society, outside of those parts of society who live in icy and snowy conditions a good chunk of the year. In these circumstances, we appreciate the extra weight.
- t0mas88 3y ago
  They're not "comparable" at all. You're probably comparing the lightest model 3 (which you cannot buy anymore, the newer models are heavier) to the heaviest Audi A3 model on the market otherwise they aren't "very comparable" Same for the model S, it's on average about 200kg heavier than a BMW 5 series across the range from most basic model to heaviest on both. If a car has a 500kg battery, and tech improvements can make that 200-300kg for the same range that would be quite good. Handling improves, safety improves, the suspension can be simpler and in the end also range in stop&go traffic would improve with less weight.
- oblio 3y ago
  The floor for EVs is very high. In Europe people frequently buy compact cars. Let's take VW Golf as an example. The lightest version of the current model weighs 1300kg, more or less. The EV equivalent, ID.3, weighs 1800kg. That's 500kg extra (!) which is almost 40% more. That's an insane amount of extra weight for a small car. The percentage difference becomes less for bigger cars, so I imagine that's why some Americans don't notice it as much. But for the rest of the world (95% of the world's population), that's a huge deal.
  - jacobgorm 3y ago
    Meanwhile, the BMW i3 weights between 1245 kg to 1441 kg, depending on configuration, battery size, and presence of optional range extender engine, showing what is possible when companies bother to optimize for weight savings.
    - enragedcacti 3y ago
      The i3 is a carbon finer tub design which is both extremely expensive and not uniquely applicable to EVs. It's a very cool design but its an extreme outlier and it isn't a realistic bar to compare against for companies trying to make money on mass market vehicles.
    - moogly 3y ago
      I doubt the i3 was profitable, which is probably why they discontinued it. It was basically a sort of production concept car.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Here's some vehicles it's much closer to in weight than the audi: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2=401983513&veh3=401960542&veh4=401972541 https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2...
- Nition 3y ago
  Everyone here so far is comparing different models, but you can just compare the exact same car to remove (most) other factors. 2020 Kia Niro LX (1.6L petrol engine): 3,100lb 2020 Kia Niro Touring (1.6L petrol engine): ~3,250lb 2020 Kia Niro EX (64kWh EV): 3,854 lbs Batteries are heavy.

warble 3y ago

Yes this is the real win. Lighter smaller batteries. Better efficiency and easier to design around for safety and maintenance.

hnick 3y ago
If it allows a smaller and cheaper battery (hopefully in the longer term, less size = less expense) then it should make lower capacity small city EV runabouts more attractive. Right now the price floor is unattractive. Many households have two cars, one for errands and one for work/travel, so if that's true it helps on both accounts.

hamandcheese 3y ago

When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.

majormajor 3y ago
Are there any EVs with Honda Civic or Accord or BMW 2 series weight? E.g. <3500lb? Even a Leaf seems to start at 3500lbs now.
- qdog 3y ago
  The Mini Electric is down there. Weighs more than gas, and one of the reasons it isn't long range, would push up the weight too much. The current generation of battery tech is just a little heavier than would be competitive to ICE on weight. Gasoline holds a lot more energy than a battery can, but the engine is heavier. If/when battery density is able to double (and this solid state tech is 2x-3x current battery, so it would be a game-changer), you would have very similar car weights. This seems to be one of the reasons the big trucks are first, adding a thousand pounds to a 6000 lb. truck isn't as bad as adding that to a car half the weight. I expect we will eventually see vehicles that weight less than the ICE counterpart that get a reasonable range, but hard to say when battery tech advances that much.
- morepork 3y ago
  BYD Dolphin is 1285-1450 kg depending on which options you pick, which is in that range
blinkingled 3y ago
Maybe the S3 can afford to add more insulation compared to the Model 3? I mean Teslas aren't known for good road noise isolation so if they do reduce battery weight they can add some more for the insulation for example.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Whereas Audi are known for excellent noise isolation, road, engine, to the point that in some models they pipe in engine noise because it's almost too isolated.
lastofthemojito 3y ago
I feel like that's quite a stretch of the word comparable. The Model 3 is 14% heavier than the Audi: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2=401958030 https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2... And the Ioniq5 is 35% heavier than the RAV4: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401958795&veh2=401961788 https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401958795&veh2...
- kube-system 3y ago
  And the Audi is already on the heavier side for vehicles of that size. Mainstream non-'luxury' sedans of comparable size are often 3200-3300, like Accord/Camry/Altima, and the construction of these vehicles is a more equal comparison.
  - disiplus 3y ago
    S3 is heavy because it has 4wd and a bigger everything compared to a lower trim model. The same as the vw golf 8 starts at 1300kg, but my R model is in the 1500 range because it has 4wd and other things like adaptive damping that make it heavy
    - kube-system 3y ago
      AWD is available on the Camry for an 86kg penalty. But yes, every part adds weight. That's why Teslas have spartan interiors and less noise deadening than other vehicles in the price range, they're spending as much weight as possible on the batteries and not the rest of the car.
- mohaine 3y ago
  From Google: Model 3: 3,862 to 4,048 lbs Audi S3: 3,527 lbs 9-14% seems comparable IMO and worst case roughly half he mentioned 1000 lbs.
  - disiplus 3y ago
    The difference is around 250kg. Witch is a lot for a small car. My source is adac. But if you don't go to a S3 and are OK with regular A3 with smaller engine those start at 1300 kg.
iamatworknow 3y ago
I always bought into this "meme", in part because just about every EV review I've seen mentions having to compensate for the extra weight which makes those cars less performant at times, so decided to look it up based on your quoted vehicles here, and figured I'd save anyone else the same search: A 2023 Rav 4 has a curb weight of between 3615 and 3775 lb [1] A 2023 Ioniq 5 has a curb weight of between 3968 and 4663 lb [2] So a difference of between 193 and 1048 pounds between the two. That's actually a lot less than I expected, at least on the low end. 193 pounds is basically equivalent to just having one extra person in the car. As noted in replies, though, these _do_ take into account different drive trains, so the comparison is not not great from the start. [1] https://www.toyota.com/rav4/2023/features/mpg_other_price/4437/4448/4530 https://www.toyota.com/rav4/2023/features/mpg_other_price/44... [2] https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/ioniq-5/compare-specs https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/ioniq-5/compare-sp...
- ultrarunner 3y ago
  Not to devolve into splitting hairs, but your minimum range is comparing the heaviest premium AWD ICE vehicle to the FWD-only standard model electric, and the electric is still heavier.
  - iamatworknow 3y ago
    Yeah, I missed that there were the two lines for the Ioniq 5 weight based on the drivetrain, and a column that was not obviously hidden with my window size, my bad.
- arh68 3y ago
  Your numbers seem off... Base models: 3,370 vs 3,968. Flagship models: 3,800 vs 4,663. So 600-850 lbs differential. Not 1,000, but not just an extra person. To be fair, the Hyundai does seem larger (12" longer wheelbase).
  - iamatworknow 3y ago
    Yeah...I messed up. Damn window size and two different drivetrains for the Ioniq. Side note, web design sucks.
toddmorey 3y ago
It’s not a meme. Battery electric powertrains are heavier than ICE + fuel equivalents.
ultrarunner 3y ago
The Audi is 3,527 lbs, where the Model 3 is 4,048 lbs. The Tesla is a bit longer and narrower, but they're both big cars. The Rav4 FWD is 3370 lbs, where the Ionic 5 standard range FWD is about 4,000 lbs (the SEL is 4,300). If the best examples are "only 500-700 lbs heavier" I think there is still room for progress. Rounded, that's the rough 1000 lbs I suggested above. Electric cars are, in aggregate, simply heavier right now— with implications for crash safety for everyone (especially those outside that vehicle). Any progress toward increasing energy density (and vehicle size) will confer a net benefit to society.
- daddylongstroke 3y ago
  ...a net benefit to society, outside of those parts of society who live in icy and snowy conditions a good chunk of the year. In these circumstances, we appreciate the extra weight.
t0mas88 3y ago
They're not "comparable" at all. You're probably comparing the lightest model 3 (which you cannot buy anymore, the newer models are heavier) to the heaviest Audi A3 model on the market otherwise they aren't "very comparable" Same for the model S, it's on average about 200kg heavier than a BMW 5 series across the range from most basic model to heaviest on both. If a car has a 500kg battery, and tech improvements can make that 200-300kg for the same range that would be quite good. Handling improves, safety improves, the suspension can be simpler and in the end also range in stop&go traffic would improve with less weight.
oblio 3y ago
The floor for EVs is very high. In Europe people frequently buy compact cars. Let's take VW Golf as an example. The lightest version of the current model weighs 1300kg, more or less. The EV equivalent, ID.3, weighs 1800kg. That's 500kg extra (!) which is almost 40% more. That's an insane amount of extra weight for a small car. The percentage difference becomes less for bigger cars, so I imagine that's why some Americans don't notice it as much. But for the rest of the world (95% of the world's population), that's a huge deal.
- jacobgorm 3y ago
  Meanwhile, the BMW i3 weights between 1245 kg to 1441 kg, depending on configuration, battery size, and presence of optional range extender engine, showing what is possible when companies bother to optimize for weight savings.
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    The i3 is a carbon finer tub design which is both extremely expensive and not uniquely applicable to EVs. It's a very cool design but its an extreme outlier and it isn't a realistic bar to compare against for companies trying to make money on mass market vehicles.
  - moogly 3y ago
    I doubt the i3 was profitable, which is probably why they discontinued it. It was basically a sort of production concept car.
kube-system 3y ago
Here's some vehicles it's much closer to in weight than the audi: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2=401983513&veh3=401960542&veh4=401972541 https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2...
Nition 3y ago
Everyone here so far is comparing different models, but you can just compare the exact same car to remove (most) other factors. 2020 Kia Niro LX (1.6L petrol engine): 3,100lb 2020 Kia Niro Touring (1.6L petrol engine): ~3,250lb 2020 Kia Niro EX (64kWh EV): 3,854 lbs Batteries are heavy.