4 ms·

> Falsehoods about Names - The article that started it all. This is a meta-falsehood in that the names programmers deal with are often mandated to have certain

by msla 3y ago

> Falsehoods about Names - The article that started it all. This is a meta-falsehood in that the names programmers deal with are often mandated to have certain properties by external authorities, such as governments. For example, a programmer writing payroll software has to deal with the government because of taxes, so the government will decide what names are valid. Sometimes, as in Denmark, this means names are picked out of a list of valid names, and any name not on the list is invalid. This isn't a "falsehood" in that the Danish government is a source of truth, and cannot be wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law This same logic applies to other supposed "falsehoods" as well, in that external sources of truth can mandate properties and the code must conform. At that point, it stops being a falsehood. (Further, if your name has a character my software can't represent, we'll have to come to some kind of agreement in order to proceed. That isn't a "falsehood" it's a basic fact of life.)

Blackthorn 3y ago
I think the word "falsehood" might be better described as "heuristic".
- msla 3y ago
  It's the right word, it just isn't being used in its full context. Like, plenty of people have names not on the Great Big List Of Dane Names. Those people are not Danes, but if you want to deal with the non-Danish of the world, you have to handle names not on the Dane Names list. OTOH, thinking people writing tax software for Denmark are falling prey to a "falsehood" by not allowing someone to be named 手塚治 you're committing the falsehood of not understanding why they're accepting names to begin with.
bobthepanda 3y ago
Does Denmark not have working immigrants who pay taxes?
- msla 3y ago
  My point is less about Danish taxes and more about external constraints. By all means nitpick my knowledge of the Danish tax code, though. That sounds like fun.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    They're pointing out that while danish law can determine what names are applicable to some specific purposes, they aren't actually an authority on what names are valid. If you weren't being a dick about it this would actually make your original point stronger, as now your business domain logic is the intersection of danish law with actual names, a more complex case than either alone and requiring judgement and tradeoffs.
- _thisdot 3y ago
  Under the Law on Personal Names, first names are picked from a list of approved names (18,000 female names and 15,000 male names as of 1 January 2016). One can also apply to Ankestyrelsen for approval of new names, e.g. common first names from other countries. Names cannot have surname character, and must follow Danish orthography (e.g. Cammmilla with three m's is not allowed).
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Right but if you move from another country as an adult are you required to conform to this rule? Do you have to change your name? Do you change your name after you arrive? What are you using in the mean time? Does the state keep a record of your pre-change name? The restriction on baby names doesn't lead into a clean authority on all names. Especially not one you can map with a sql check constraint or whatever.
    - _thisdot 3y ago
      If you move from another country as an adult you may need to apply to add your name to the list of approved names
deathanatos 3y ago
> For example, a programmer writing payroll software has to deal with the government because of taxes, so the government will decide what names are valid. (IANAL.) Hehe … but which government? (And perhaps which bureau within the government?) My birth certificate & driver's license — both issued by the same state — had different names on them. (Mostly because my state has the IQ of a rock.) (A situation I've since resolved by moving…) But yes … prompt only for the exact bits you need to feed upstream … ideally. The problem is that PMs want the UI to be "simple". Even today, there's no requirement that driver's license (state A) == birth cert (state B) == SSN (feds). (Although — again, IANAL — that last one can, AIUI, only be temporarily out of sync, as there's a requirement that if you change your legal nameᵃ that you must then change your legal nameᵇ.) (ᵃwith a state government; ᵇwith the SSA. I got no idea what the SSA does with differing legal names between states, which some states force because de jure you're not permitted to reconcile the differences. Aforementioned rock-IQ state does this.)

by msla 3y ago

Blackthorn 3y ago

I think the word "falsehood" might be better described as "heuristic".

msla 3y ago
It's the right word, it just isn't being used in its full context. Like, plenty of people have names not on the Great Big List Of Dane Names. Those people are not Danes, but if you want to deal with the non-Danish of the world, you have to handle names not on the Dane Names list. OTOH, thinking people writing tax software for Denmark are falling prey to a "falsehood" by not allowing someone to be named 手塚治 you're committing the falsehood of not understanding why they're accepting names to begin with.

bobthepanda 3y ago

Does Denmark not have working immigrants who pay taxes?

msla 3y ago
My point is less about Danish taxes and more about external constraints. By all means nitpick my knowledge of the Danish tax code, though. That sounds like fun.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  They're pointing out that while danish law can determine what names are applicable to some specific purposes, they aren't actually an authority on what names are valid. If you weren't being a dick about it this would actually make your original point stronger, as now your business domain logic is the intersection of danish law with actual names, a more complex case than either alone and requiring judgement and tradeoffs.
_thisdot 3y ago
Under the Law on Personal Names, first names are picked from a list of approved names (18,000 female names and 15,000 male names as of 1 January 2016). One can also apply to Ankestyrelsen for approval of new names, e.g. common first names from other countries. Names cannot have surname character, and must follow Danish orthography (e.g. Cammmilla with three m's is not allowed).
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  Right but if you move from another country as an adult are you required to conform to this rule? Do you have to change your name? Do you change your name after you arrive? What are you using in the mean time? Does the state keep a record of your pre-change name? The restriction on baby names doesn't lead into a clean authority on all names. Especially not one you can map with a sql check constraint or whatever.
  - _thisdot 3y ago
    If you move from another country as an adult you may need to apply to add your name to the list of approved names

deathanatos 3y ago

> For example, a programmer writing payroll software has to deal with the government because of taxes, so the government will decide what names are valid. (IANAL.) Hehe … but which government? (And perhaps which bureau within the government?) My birth certificate & driver's license — both issued by the same state — had different names on them. (Mostly because my state has the IQ of a rock.) (A situation I've since resolved by moving…) But yes … prompt only for the exact bits you need to feed upstream … ideally. The problem is that PMs want the UI to be "simple". Even today, there's no requirement that driver's license (state A) == birth cert (state B) == SSN (feds). (Although — again, IANAL — that last one can, AIUI, only be temporarily out of sync, as there's a requirement that if you change your legal nameᵃ that you must then change your legal nameᵇ.) (ᵃwith a state government; ᵇwith the SSA. I got no idea what the SSA does with differing legal names between states, which some states force because de jure you're not permitted to reconcile the differences. Aforementioned rock-IQ state does this.)