7 ms·

A big part of wanting to live in a big house far away from the place you go is that it insulates you from the pollution you bring with your car to the place you

A big part of wanting to live in a big house far away from the place you go is that it insulates you from the pollution you bring with your car to the place you go. This is basically a prisoner dilemma, you enjoy the common goods of the city but don't get the downsides by defecting to the countryside, making the city worse in the process. In the end everybody loses.

falcolas 3y ago
> is that it insulates you from the pollution you bring with your car to the place you go This is a citation needed comment to me. It's one heck of an assertion that I have never heard. Most folks I've chatted with who have made this transition do it because of the density of people, not the pollution (which is miles better in cities than it was even 20 years ago).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- fowkswe 3y ago
  Does this need a citation? The car is the thing that brings the pollution. You live in the burbs, you drive the car, you pollute. You live in the city, you walk/bike/transit, you pollute less.
  - mym1990 3y ago
    I have lived in quite a few cities in the US, and people who live in the city are still driving a majority of the time. There are not that many US cities that have the appropriate biking and transit capabilities to match their size.
  - replygirl 3y ago
    > A big part of wanting to live in a big house far away from the place you go is
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    The part that needs a citation is not "cars make pollution" but rather "pollution is the main reason people want to move to the suburbs".
  - ebiester 3y ago
    The citation needed is that anyone takes a car to avoid car pollution.
- fvdessen 3y ago
  I used to think like that, but the city I live in has regular no car days that made me change my mind. The first and biggest pollution is the noise. The ambient car noise has a huge effect on stress level and sleep quality. When you remove the car from the city, it's almost at silent as the countryside. The second is the danger in the street. Your brain registers those big fast moving cars as potential danger to avoid and raises your stress level and makes you want to move away from it. The third one is the space the car take. When you remove the cars you have the opportunity to either make things easier to walk to, or to add parks and greenery. When you remove cars, modern cities are surprisingly empty, much less dense than a village. Then there's the air pollution.
  - bbatha 3y ago
    > When you remove the car from the city, it's almost at silent as the countryside. What do you plan on doing about emergency vehicles and their sirens and construction? Those are by far the biggest sources of noise for me in a city. Normal car traffic is omnipresent but usually has a fairly low ceiling that doesn't go through walls all that much.
    - fvdessen 3y ago
      Emergency vehicles sirens only need to be loud because they have to be heard by other drivers in their cars, which are sound proofed to not hear their own noise. Normal car traffic absolutely goes through walls, you think you are used to it, but it actually stresses you quite a lot. Construction work can be an issue indeed
      - digging 3y ago
        > Construction work can be an issue indeed As it is in suburbs too. My parents' house is fairly quiet, until a neighbor is hammering or sawing. And that doesn't even include the loud insanity of lawn mowing in the desert.
  - pandaman 3y ago
    Judging by you mentioning "no car days" you don't live in the US. American cars are very quiet at the city speed. Americans, on the other hand, are not quiet at all. Especially when they are moving by foot in a walkable neighborhood with drinking establishments.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  That’s right. I moved to a single family home in the boonies because I want to be insulated from people, not pollution. I don’t want to constantly hear my neighbor’s music or their fucking at 4 in the morning. I don’t want to smell their awful food. I don’t want to be part of their domestic drama when their ex-boyfriend stomps up out shared stairs, angry. I don’t want them up in my business whenever I do something right outside my home. I want to see them occasionally, waving from a great distance.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  I'm with you, I want a big house so I can get away from people, not so I can get away from pollution.
isykt 3y ago
Everybody doesn’t lose. Conservatives in Texas win big time with this strategy. They suck all the money out of the cities where all the liberals live and rely on the rural voter base to wage the culture war. For example, the legislature just passed a law that stripped Austin of the ability to make various ordinances. It also funds its rural schools with payments from the cities — a consequence of having no state income tax and instead a high property tax.
- pc86 3y ago
  Do most states with income taxes fund schools from them? I've lived in several states but all have had both income and property taxes, and to my knowledge all of them funded schools exclusively from property taxes. In many of them there is literally a line item with the name of the school district. How is Texas funding rural schools with urban property taxes if they're in different districts?
  - isykt 3y ago
    It’s called “recapture” and it’s worse than I described: https://recapturetexas.org/ https://recapturetexas.org/ The money doesn’t even go to education in rural areas, not completely. It just goes into the general state budget. The really fucked up thing is that local ISDs are intentionally underfunded because of this policy. Stick the liberals with the pollution, kill their public schools, take their money and spend it on vouchers for private religious schools. Oh, and gerrymander the fuck out of their districts so the suburbs and ranch dwellers have all the say, all the time.
    - pc86 3y ago
      This is a political advocacy organization, which may have positive goals, but is absolutely only going to be presenting one side of the argument and in a very "we're 100% good and the other side is 100% evil" kind of way. Not saying it's not worth looking into but it's like trying to get unbiased information on all political candidates in a race by going to one candidate's campaign website. It seems like the answer to "How is Texas funding rural schools with urban property taxes" is most likely "they're not, they're taking money from both schools for general budget appropriations."
para_parolu 3y ago
To be honest this is the first time I hear such argument from someone. For me and people I know living far from city is about price or community or living in quiet place.
- fvdessen 3y ago
  The lack of quiet in the city is almost entirely due to the cars. Less obvious is the lack of community, but car-streets acts as barriers that prevent people from meeting each other. This is really noticeable if your city has a car free day; It will be the day you meet your neighbours for the first time.
  - ebiester 3y ago
    The most frustrating noise in communal living is rarely the cars outside - it's the neighbors. It's the upstairs neighbors and the downstairs neighbors. It's the cigarette smoke from someone who shares a vent. It's the thin walls and someone wanting to listen to music loudly. (Or I want to listen to music or watch a movie loudly without neighbors complaining!) Can I hear the neighbor's kids when they're screeching because they're fighting or playing? Can I hear the neighbors having sex? Can they hear me?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
tivert 3y ago
> A big part of wanting to live in a big house far away from the place you go is that it insulates you from the pollution you bring with your car to the place you go. I can tell you're almost certainly totally wrong, and "fleeing from car pollution" not a big part at all. IMHO, the biggest driver by far is wanting more space. If there's any pollution people want to escape from, it's probably noise pollution (e.g. seeking peace and quiet).
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  I'm not saying that either of you are right or wrong, but cars are one of the main (if not the main) contributors to noise pollution in cities.
  - tivert 3y ago
    > I'm not saying that either of you are right or wrong, but cars are one of the main (if not the main) contributors to noise pollution in cities. If that's true, I think the right way to think about it is transportation is the contributor to noise pollution, not cars specifically. We're not getting rid of transportation. If you somehow got rid of cars, bus, train, and truck traffic would have to increase to compensate.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      I'm not sure where truck traffic fits in this equation. As for the others, you're probably right. That said, we don't necessarily need to get rid of cars. EVs are much less pollutant than ICEs, both in terms of air and noise. They don't solve tyre pollution. Getting rid of (or massively reducing the reliance on) cars might have other advantages though. Less honking, for one. Probably less police, ambulance and firefighter sirens since it's likely to be less traffic. Fewer people shouting with other drivers. Busses can be made fairly silent. Trains, especially underground metro ones, are not all that disruptive to the general city life. Again, I'm not saying any particular solution is necessarily correct or desired. I just went off and tried to picture what it could look like.

falcolas 3y ago

> is that it insulates you from the pollution you bring with your car to the place you go This is a citation needed comment to me. It's one heck of an assertion that I have never heard. Most folks I've chatted with who have made this transition do it because of the density of people, not the pollution (which is miles better in cities than it was even 20 years ago).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fowkswe 3y ago
Does this need a citation? The car is the thing that brings the pollution. You live in the burbs, you drive the car, you pollute. You live in the city, you walk/bike/transit, you pollute less.
- mym1990 3y ago
  I have lived in quite a few cities in the US, and people who live in the city are still driving a majority of the time. There are not that many US cities that have the appropriate biking and transit capabilities to match their size.
- replygirl 3y ago
  > A big part of wanting to live in a big house far away from the place you go is
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  The part that needs a citation is not "cars make pollution" but rather "pollution is the main reason people want to move to the suburbs".
- ebiester 3y ago
  The citation needed is that anyone takes a car to avoid car pollution.
fvdessen 3y ago
I used to think like that, but the city I live in has regular no car days that made me change my mind. The first and biggest pollution is the noise. The ambient car noise has a huge effect on stress level and sleep quality. When you remove the car from the city, it's almost at silent as the countryside. The second is the danger in the street. Your brain registers those big fast moving cars as potential danger to avoid and raises your stress level and makes you want to move away from it. The third one is the space the car take. When you remove the cars you have the opportunity to either make things easier to walk to, or to add parks and greenery. When you remove cars, modern cities are surprisingly empty, much less dense than a village. Then there's the air pollution.
- bbatha 3y ago
  > When you remove the car from the city, it's almost at silent as the countryside. What do you plan on doing about emergency vehicles and their sirens and construction? Those are by far the biggest sources of noise for me in a city. Normal car traffic is omnipresent but usually has a fairly low ceiling that doesn't go through walls all that much.
  - fvdessen 3y ago
    Emergency vehicles sirens only need to be loud because they have to be heard by other drivers in their cars, which are sound proofed to not hear their own noise. Normal car traffic absolutely goes through walls, you think you are used to it, but it actually stresses you quite a lot. Construction work can be an issue indeed
    - digging 3y ago
      > Construction work can be an issue indeed As it is in suburbs too. My parents' house is fairly quiet, until a neighbor is hammering or sawing. And that doesn't even include the loud insanity of lawn mowing in the desert.
- pandaman 3y ago
  Judging by you mentioning "no car days" you don't live in the US. American cars are very quiet at the city speed. Americans, on the other hand, are not quiet at all. Especially when they are moving by foot in a walkable neighborhood with drinking establishments.
ryandrake 3y ago
That’s right. I moved to a single family home in the boonies because I want to be insulated from people, not pollution. I don’t want to constantly hear my neighbor’s music or their fucking at 4 in the morning. I don’t want to smell their awful food. I don’t want to be part of their domestic drama when their ex-boyfriend stomps up out shared stairs, angry. I don’t want them up in my business whenever I do something right outside my home. I want to see them occasionally, waving from a great distance.
mock-possum 3y ago
I'm with you, I want a big house so I can get away from people, not so I can get away from pollution.

isykt 3y ago

Everybody doesn’t lose. Conservatives in Texas win big time with this strategy. They suck all the money out of the cities where all the liberals live and rely on the rural voter base to wage the culture war. For example, the legislature just passed a law that stripped Austin of the ability to make various ordinances. It also funds its rural schools with payments from the cities — a consequence of having no state income tax and instead a high property tax.

pc86 3y ago
Do most states with income taxes fund schools from them? I've lived in several states but all have had both income and property taxes, and to my knowledge all of them funded schools exclusively from property taxes. In many of them there is literally a line item with the name of the school district. How is Texas funding rural schools with urban property taxes if they're in different districts?
- isykt 3y ago
  It’s called “recapture” and it’s worse than I described: https://recapturetexas.org/ https://recapturetexas.org/ The money doesn’t even go to education in rural areas, not completely. It just goes into the general state budget. The really fucked up thing is that local ISDs are intentionally underfunded because of this policy. Stick the liberals with the pollution, kill their public schools, take their money and spend it on vouchers for private religious schools. Oh, and gerrymander the fuck out of their districts so the suburbs and ranch dwellers have all the say, all the time.
  - pc86 3y ago
    This is a political advocacy organization, which may have positive goals, but is absolutely only going to be presenting one side of the argument and in a very "we're 100% good and the other side is 100% evil" kind of way. Not saying it's not worth looking into but it's like trying to get unbiased information on all political candidates in a race by going to one candidate's campaign website. It seems like the answer to "How is Texas funding rural schools with urban property taxes" is most likely "they're not, they're taking money from both schools for general budget appropriations."

para_parolu 3y ago

To be honest this is the first time I hear such argument from someone. For me and people I know living far from city is about price or community or living in quiet place.

fvdessen 3y ago
The lack of quiet in the city is almost entirely due to the cars. Less obvious is the lack of community, but car-streets acts as barriers that prevent people from meeting each other. This is really noticeable if your city has a car free day; It will be the day you meet your neighbours for the first time.
- ebiester 3y ago
  The most frustrating noise in communal living is rarely the cars outside - it's the neighbors. It's the upstairs neighbors and the downstairs neighbors. It's the cigarette smoke from someone who shares a vent. It's the thin walls and someone wanting to listen to music loudly. (Or I want to listen to music or watch a movie loudly without neighbors complaining!) Can I hear the neighbor's kids when they're screeching because they're fighting or playing? Can I hear the neighbors having sex? Can they hear me?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

tivert 3y ago

> A big part of wanting to live in a big house far away from the place you go is that it insulates you from the pollution you bring with your car to the place you go. I can tell you're almost certainly totally wrong, and "fleeing from car pollution" not a big part at all. IMHO, the biggest driver by far is wanting more space. If there's any pollution people want to escape from, it's probably noise pollution (e.g. seeking peace and quiet).

cassianoleal 3y ago
I'm not saying that either of you are right or wrong, but cars are one of the main (if not the main) contributors to noise pollution in cities.
- tivert 3y ago
  > I'm not saying that either of you are right or wrong, but cars are one of the main (if not the main) contributors to noise pollution in cities. If that's true, I think the right way to think about it is transportation is the contributor to noise pollution, not cars specifically. We're not getting rid of transportation. If you somehow got rid of cars, bus, train, and truck traffic would have to increase to compensate.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    I'm not sure where truck traffic fits in this equation. As for the others, you're probably right. That said, we don't necessarily need to get rid of cars. EVs are much less pollutant than ICEs, both in terms of air and noise. They don't solve tyre pollution. Getting rid of (or massively reducing the reliance on) cars might have other advantages though. Less honking, for one. Probably less police, ambulance and firefighter sirens since it's likely to be less traffic. Fewer people shouting with other drivers. Busses can be made fairly silent. Trains, especially underground metro ones, are not all that disruptive to the general city life. Again, I'm not saying any particular solution is necessarily correct or desired. I just went off and tried to picture what it could look like.