4 ms·
We know that most people don't hold that view because that's what polling reveals, even in the countries where law and policy have been changed in favour of tha
by gonet 3y ago
We know that most people don't hold that view because that's what polling reveals, even in the countries where law and policy have been changed in favour of that view.
To further explain my linguistic point though, it's really down to an ambiguity as to whether "trans woman" and "trans man" are meant as compound nouns (in the open form, as the closed form, e.g. "transwoman", doesn't have this ambiguity) or noun phrases.
As compound nouns, these have the sense of a man or woman who wishes to be the opposite. That is, a "trans woman" is a man who desires to be a woman, and a "trans man" is a woman who wants to be a man. They may even end up believing themselves to be so, based on that desire.
As noun phrases, these apply the adjective "trans" as if a subset of the group the noun is describing. So a "trans woman" is understood as a woman who is male, and a "trans man" as man who is female. But this only works if you also believe that "woman" and "man" are "gender identity" categories that one can identify into, rather than based on the material biological reality of being, respectively, female or male.
Introducing "cis" removes that ambiguity, implying noun phrases rather than compound nouns, and thus implies acceptance of the "gender identity" belief. When people object to the terms "cis woman" and "cis man", they are expressing a rejection of this belief system.
- DoreenMichele 3y agoWhen people object to the terms "cis woman" and "cis man", they are expressing a rejection of this belief system. Please don't paint with such a broad brush. I'm not a huge fan of the term "cis" and use it somewhat reluctantly because it's the term I know to be in use to make this distinction. I also was very supportive of a trans youth for about nine months some years back. I'm not interested in debating this with you. But for the record, it's possible to not like the term and also not be someone who outright rejects the concept that some people have a biological identity that doesn't match the identity in their brain.
- gonet 3y agoInteresting, what are your reasons for being reluctant to use the term "cis"? I ask not to debate, but out of curiosity.
- DoreenMichele 3y agoI'm not a huge fan of labels. To me, it seems to add no real distinction. It is saying, basically, "What you thought the unmodified version of the following word meant before you learned some people feel that there is something very wrong with their life and it has to do with a mismatch between their body and their identity." I don't know what the solution is. I think the LGBTQ community sees high levels of trauma due to social rejection and abuse, often from people very close to them who are supposed to protect them, not hurt them, and I think this complicates working out solutions. But I think some of what gets done is probably not really in their best interest and it's hard to discuss that because any critique of current practices gets interpreted as "You are one of my enemies!"
- Timon3 3y ago> We know that most people don't hold that view because that's what polling reveals, even in the countries where law and policy have been changed in favour of that view. You have made this statement twice now, but that is not proof itself. Can you share the polls you are referencing? > To further explain my linguistic point though, it's really down to an ambiguity as to whether "trans woman" and "trans man" are meant as compound nouns (in the open form, as the closed form, e.g. "transwoman", doesn't have this ambiguity) or noun phrases. > As compound nouns, these have the sense of a man or woman who wishes to be the opposite. That is, a "trans woman" is a man who desires to be a woman, and a "trans man" is a woman who wants to be a man. They may even end up believing themselves to be so, based on that desire. This is not objective truth, it is your subjective opinion. > As noun phrases, these apply the adjective "trans" as if a subset of the group the noun is describing. So a "trans woman" is understood as a woman who is male, and a "trans man" as man who is female. But this only works if you also believe that "woman" and "man" are "gender identity" categories that one can identify into, rather than based on the material biological reality of being, respectively, female or male. Yes, it only works if you use the words as they are used by others. > Introducing "cis" removes that ambiguity, implying noun phrases rather than compound nouns, and thus implies acceptance of the "gender identity" belief. When people object to the terms "cis woman" and "cis man", they are expressing a rejection of this belief system. Can you now circle back to the original topic - "cis" being defined as a slur? Because if the reason for Musk to define it as such is a rejection of the "belief system" of trans people, it seems pretty obvious that it's transphobic.
- idiotsecant 3y agoI hate the word 'cis' so much because it sounds like 'cyst'. Why would they not pick a better word.
- krapp 3y ago"They?" The Romans? "cis" is just the Latin prefix antonym to "trans." The former means "on the same side (as)," the latter means "on the other side (of)."
- idiotsecant 3y agoBoth of these are arbitrary choices, but trans doesn't sound like a medical issue. I will die on this hill, cis is a poor choice.