4 ms·

Apple probably have similar motives to MS when it comes to crippling the browser and enforcing its own rendering engine in iOS and that is to protects its app m

by mrtksn 3y ago

Apple probably have similar motives to MS when it comes to crippling the browser and enforcing its own rendering engine in iOS and that is to protects its app market. However, Apple did not attempt to divide the web then use its dominant position to make all the content only compatible with their stuff. With the IE situation, you couldn't just download Firefox and live happy thereafter because every website was made to work in IE and any other browser would simply fail to display the webpages properly either due to the way HTML/CSS is handled or due to some proprietary technology. Apple hasn't done that, maybe only because its tiny marketshare compared to the alternatives but that's how it is. Unfortunately, due to the marketshare of Google Chrome, they can pull an IE and there are signs of it. The hate towards Safari comes from the Web devs who are angry that they can't send push notifications and have to pay 99$ to Apple to embed their webpage into a WebView to pass as an app. There's no much hate towards Safari in its userbase, it's by far the most convenient Web browser in Apple's ecosystem, by far the most battery efficient and the performance is top notch too. Completely different situation with the tragedy of IE.

lesuorac 3y ago
> However, Apple did not attempt to divide the web then use it's dominant position to make all the content only compatible with their stuff. Flash would like a word with you.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Flash died due to its own sins. Apple never had a dominant marketshare to do that, Apple simply did not let that crap on its mobile platform which had %0 marketshare when that happened. Then the open web standards that can do most of the stuff that Flash was used for took over. Google tried to support Flash, even it was listed as Android's "strength" over iOS but the tech that came to handle the most use cases of Flash was much superior and it killed Flash on desktop too.
- brookst 3y ago
  Flash was a web standard?
hbn 3y ago
It could also be argued that right now Google's domination of the web allows them to throw their weight around and introduce bad "standards" just so everything can be moved to the web, which again, they basically own. For example the "standard" implementation of web push is straight up bad. I don't think websites should be able to throw popups asking users with enable notifications, because users are so used to accepting TOS agreements and cookie prompts that they just click "ok" and "accept" on everything, and now your grandma has gambling app ads in her notifications because she accepted notifications from some sketchy site she was linked to on Facebook. Apple made the right move by requiring you to add a website to your home screen before it's allowed to send you push notifications.
- nurple 3y ago
  I love how sites are now taking the mobile strategy of checking first and then showing a sugary popup explaining that they’re about to pop the native prompt for perms, and why. It brings me joy to click affirmative on those so I can permablock by clicking no on the native prompt.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    I thought the "Click Yes to notifications to prove you're not a computer" was one of the more amusing traps.
    - luckman212 3y ago
      Oh my, that's pure evil.
izacus 3y ago
> However, Apple did not attempt to divide the web then use its dominant position to make all the content only compatible with their stuff. Of course they didn't, because they outright want to kill the web so all your content is locked into Apple reviewed and taxed apps. Why would they divide the web when their goal is to make sure it's not a viable platform for their newest devices?
- velcrovan 3y ago
  > their goal is to make sure it's not a viable platform for their newest devices? If that is the case, why does Apple continue to add functionality and features for web apps on Mac OS and iOS? https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10120/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10120/
  - FractalHQ 3y ago
    To me it seems like hollow virtue signaling to the FTC. It’s so bad. I’ve been pollyfilling and bug hunting a web app to fix and work around bugs / limitations / missing APIs in Safari for weeks and the result is an inferior experience.
treis 3y ago
>you couldn't just download Firefox ... Apple hasn't done that Apple has banned any browser engine except Safari from iOS.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- kingrazor 3y ago
  Would that not mean you can't install any browser other than Safari? Because I'm running Firefox right now on iOS. Or does "ban" mean something else in this context?
  - depressedpanda 3y ago
    If your point is that you can run a Webkit-based browser branded as Firefox, you are correct. However, it's not using Gecko, so it's not actually Firefox. It's a browser whose web capabilities are controlled by Apple rather than Mozilla.
    - kingrazor 3y ago
      Interesting! I was not aware of this.
horsawlarway 3y ago
> However, Apple did not attempt to divide the web then use its dominant position to make all the content only compatible with their stuff. Excuse me? We are talking about "App store" Apple here, right? The Apple that prevents any 3rd party browsers on their platform so devs have to support safari? The Apple that refused to support progressive web apps to push devs into their store? The Apple which literally won't let users install software they don't approve of, Apple? That Apple? That's the company you're picking as "didn't attempt to divide the web"? Ooof. You've been drinking so much Kool-aid your tongue is purple.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  We are talking about browsers actually. The grunge that web developers have against App Store is baseless because its what saved the open web so far. Check out the linked article, the moment Chrome have its way into iOS, the web will die because Google will have IE level dominance. The web as we know it goes away, the browser becomes an AppStore where everything is optimised for data collection and ad serve. We already have an AppStore, let's keep having a WWW. And about the anger towards the AppStore? Well, you should be able to overcome it by drinking some herbal tea.
  - horsawlarway 3y ago
    Yes - we are. I'm talking about how Apple acts as a huge resistive force by dividing the web to push their app ecosystem (biggest growth in revenue for Apple is digital/store services). You do understand that a browser is an application? And that Apple cripples literally ALL of them on iOS to push devs to their own non-compatible app ecosystem? How in the ever-loving fuck is that not dividing the web in your eyes?
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      Please point me to the halves of the web which are divided by Apple.
      - 3y ago
spoiler 3y ago
> because every website was made to work in IE and any other browser would simply fail to display the webpages properly either due to the way HTML/CSS is handled or due to some proprietary technology. Ah. I know of this, but I've never experienced it first hand. This is more of a nuisanc for users than devs though, but I see what you meant now. Maybe I am too young, but I vaguely remember using IE5.5/6 and it already slowly being slowly phased out. I also remember the struggles as it tried to stay relevant. I can't even remember a website that was made "for IE"; all I remember is sites saying IE is poorly supported and to download literally anything else lol
cout 3y ago
Safari doesn't feel battery efficient to me. If a web site has video ads, I can watch my battery drain to zero in real time. Orion does better since it doesn't play these ads, but it would be better if I could disable whatever video type is causing this behavior altogether.

by mrtksn 3y ago

lesuorac 3y ago

> However, Apple did not attempt to divide the web then use it's dominant position to make all the content only compatible with their stuff. Flash would like a word with you.

mrtksn 3y ago
Flash died due to its own sins. Apple never had a dominant marketshare to do that, Apple simply did not let that crap on its mobile platform which had %0 marketshare when that happened. Then the open web standards that can do most of the stuff that Flash was used for took over. Google tried to support Flash, even it was listed as Android's "strength" over iOS but the tech that came to handle the most use cases of Flash was much superior and it killed Flash on desktop too.
brookst 3y ago
Flash was a web standard?

hbn 3y ago

It could also be argued that right now Google's domination of the web allows them to throw their weight around and introduce bad "standards" just so everything can be moved to the web, which again, they basically own. For example the "standard" implementation of web push is straight up bad. I don't think websites should be able to throw popups asking users with enable notifications, because users are so used to accepting TOS agreements and cookie prompts that they just click "ok" and "accept" on everything, and now your grandma has gambling app ads in her notifications because she accepted notifications from some sketchy site she was linked to on Facebook. Apple made the right move by requiring you to add a website to your home screen before it's allowed to send you push notifications.

nurple 3y ago
I love how sites are now taking the mobile strategy of checking first and then showing a sugary popup explaining that they’re about to pop the native prompt for perms, and why. It brings me joy to click affirmative on those so I can permablock by clicking no on the native prompt.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  I thought the "Click Yes to notifications to prove you're not a computer" was one of the more amusing traps.
  - luckman212 3y ago
    Oh my, that's pure evil.

izacus 3y ago

> However, Apple did not attempt to divide the web then use its dominant position to make all the content only compatible with their stuff. Of course they didn't, because they outright want to kill the web so all your content is locked into Apple reviewed and taxed apps. Why would they divide the web when their goal is to make sure it's not a viable platform for their newest devices?

velcrovan 3y ago
> their goal is to make sure it's not a viable platform for their newest devices? If that is the case, why does Apple continue to add functionality and features for web apps on Mac OS and iOS? https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10120/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10120/
- FractalHQ 3y ago
  To me it seems like hollow virtue signaling to the FTC. It’s so bad. I’ve been pollyfilling and bug hunting a web app to fix and work around bugs / limitations / missing APIs in Safari for weeks and the result is an inferior experience.

treis 3y ago

>you couldn't just download Firefox ... Apple hasn't done that Apple has banned any browser engine except Safari from iOS.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kingrazor 3y ago
Would that not mean you can't install any browser other than Safari? Because I'm running Firefox right now on iOS. Or does "ban" mean something else in this context?
- depressedpanda 3y ago
  If your point is that you can run a Webkit-based browser branded as Firefox, you are correct. However, it's not using Gecko, so it's not actually Firefox. It's a browser whose web capabilities are controlled by Apple rather than Mozilla.
  - kingrazor 3y ago
    Interesting! I was not aware of this.

horsawlarway 3y ago

> However, Apple did not attempt to divide the web then use its dominant position to make all the content only compatible with their stuff. Excuse me? We are talking about "App store" Apple here, right? The Apple that prevents any 3rd party browsers on their platform so devs have to support safari? The Apple that refused to support progressive web apps to push devs into their store? The Apple which literally won't let users install software they don't approve of, Apple? That Apple? That's the company you're picking as "didn't attempt to divide the web"? Ooof. You've been drinking so much Kool-aid your tongue is purple.

mrtksn 3y ago
We are talking about browsers actually. The grunge that web developers have against App Store is baseless because its what saved the open web so far. Check out the linked article, the moment Chrome have its way into iOS, the web will die because Google will have IE level dominance. The web as we know it goes away, the browser becomes an AppStore where everything is optimised for data collection and ad serve. We already have an AppStore, let's keep having a WWW. And about the anger towards the AppStore? Well, you should be able to overcome it by drinking some herbal tea.
- horsawlarway 3y ago
  Yes - we are. I'm talking about how Apple acts as a huge resistive force by dividing the web to push their app ecosystem (biggest growth in revenue for Apple is digital/store services). You do understand that a browser is an application? And that Apple cripples literally ALL of them on iOS to push devs to their own non-compatible app ecosystem? How in the ever-loving fuck is that not dividing the web in your eyes?
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Please point me to the halves of the web which are divided by Apple.
    - 3y ago

spoiler 3y ago

> because every website was made to work in IE and any other browser would simply fail to display the webpages properly either due to the way HTML/CSS is handled or due to some proprietary technology. Ah. I know of this, but I've never experienced it first hand. This is more of a nuisanc for users than devs though, but I see what you meant now. Maybe I am too young, but I vaguely remember using IE5.5/6 and it already slowly being slowly phased out. I also remember the struggles as it tried to stay relevant. I can't even remember a website that was made "for IE"; all I remember is sites saying IE is poorly supported and to download literally anything else lol

cout 3y ago

Safari doesn't feel battery efficient to me. If a web site has video ads, I can watch my battery drain to zero in real time. Orion does better since it doesn't play these ads, but it would be better if I could disable whatever video type is causing this behavior altogether.