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I use Thunderbird since 2003. So you expect me, someone who never has used another program, to know I have to start Mail in order to change the default to Thund

by atoav 3y ago

I use Thunderbird since 2003. So you expect me, someone who never has used another program, to know I have to start Mail in order to change the default to Thunderbird. That doesn't make any sense. If it is a setting that influences the system it should be a system setting not in some different program I might or might not use.

wichert 3y ago
It's even worse: you can not access Mail's settings until you have configured an email account in Mail. Before that the settings options is greyed out.
- pxc 3y ago
  The true meaning of 'it just works' in Apple-speak is 'no configuration is required to start using it'. Once you realize this, you also realize the following: In practice, 'it just works' often simply means 'you cannot configure it'. It's not a claim about simplicity, robustness, compatibility, etc. It's about taking a stance against configuration. This default mail app thing is just another case of it, on the less extreme side of the spectrum (you cannot configure it for now... first you have to do some stupid bullshit).
  - CRConrad 3y ago
    Just another example of how Apple's vaunted "ease of use" and (above all, blech!) "intuitive" is just fricking hype.
    - pxc 3y ago
      I do think that sometimes configurability can be a crutch or a hasty solution that developers resort to instead of thinking through their defaults or adding a bit of intelligence to their program's behavior. Apple definitely aims to avoid that pitfall with their 'just works' approach, and I think that's valid. But they take it too far for my tastes. And the lack of configurability makes those times when the UX is disagreeable or just plain wrong feel like an insult as well as a defect. > "intuitive" is just fricking hype I think I remember my dad once saying that there's only one intuitive user interface for mammals: the nipple. After that, you're learning, whether you admit it or not!
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        The only people who think iOS is intuitive are the ones that have been using iOS since it went to material design. As someone who has almost exclusively used Android, the interface is terrible, unpredictable, and undiscoverable. Gesture based navigation feels completely random if you have not been taught it.
  - atoav 3y ago
    But it does not just work. I had a Blender Animation to render over night. On Linux or Windows this literally just means switching the energy profile to one where the computer stays on and hit render. On MacOS you do that, but it will still interrupt the render. No, you have to install caffeine, a piece of software that tells the OS to stay awake because deactivating sleeping in the system preferences won't work. Maybe it "just works" if you are using the machine exactly as intended, sure.
quitit 3y ago
You're inventing a scenario that doesn't exist. You would simply change it from Thunderbird's settings (General->System Integration.) A similar function exists in all apps that can take possession of default behaviours. The reason these defaults are per-app is because this approach pre-dates the concept of putting all default behaviours into a unified panel in the system settings: something which would invariably lead to an incomplete list of available applications.
- pxc 3y ago
  > this approach pre-dates the concept of putting all default behaviours into a unified panel When are we allowed to ask Apple to step it up, then? Because this has been available on other operating systems for many years. > something which would invariably lead to an incomplete list of available applications 1. What makes you think this? Many operating systems handle this just fine, right now, today. Apps register themselves with something like XDG services or Android Intents of whatever and in that way the OS gets a comprehensive list of them. 2. So? Even if a user wants an 'unregistered' app to be a default, you could always let the user browse to a .app folder or an executable or provide a command to execute (with some kind of pattern system for passing a file to be opened as an argument and so on).
- kalleboo 3y ago
  > this approach pre-dates the concept of putting all default behaviours into a unified panel in the system settings Apple MacOS 8.5 from 1998 had the "Internet" control panel that let you choose your default web/mail/nntp clients. The concept isn't new, even to Apple. > which would invariably lead to an incomplete list of available applications Every app already registers its supported protocols with the OS so it can show the menu of supported apps without it being stale (this is how the menu in Safari/Mail etc shows third-party apps already)

by atoav 3y ago

wichert 3y ago

It's even worse: you can not access Mail's settings until you have configured an email account in Mail. Before that the settings options is greyed out.

pxc 3y ago
The true meaning of 'it just works' in Apple-speak is 'no configuration is required to start using it'. Once you realize this, you also realize the following: In practice, 'it just works' often simply means 'you cannot configure it'. It's not a claim about simplicity, robustness, compatibility, etc. It's about taking a stance against configuration. This default mail app thing is just another case of it, on the less extreme side of the spectrum (you cannot configure it for now... first you have to do some stupid bullshit).
- CRConrad 3y ago
  Just another example of how Apple's vaunted "ease of use" and (above all, blech!) "intuitive" is just fricking hype.
  - pxc 3y ago
    I do think that sometimes configurability can be a crutch or a hasty solution that developers resort to instead of thinking through their defaults or adding a bit of intelligence to their program's behavior. Apple definitely aims to avoid that pitfall with their 'just works' approach, and I think that's valid. But they take it too far for my tastes. And the lack of configurability makes those times when the UX is disagreeable or just plain wrong feel like an insult as well as a defect. > "intuitive" is just fricking hype I think I remember my dad once saying that there's only one intuitive user interface for mammals: the nipple. After that, you're learning, whether you admit it or not!
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      The only people who think iOS is intuitive are the ones that have been using iOS since it went to material design. As someone who has almost exclusively used Android, the interface is terrible, unpredictable, and undiscoverable. Gesture based navigation feels completely random if you have not been taught it.
- atoav 3y ago
  But it does not just work. I had a Blender Animation to render over night. On Linux or Windows this literally just means switching the energy profile to one where the computer stays on and hit render. On MacOS you do that, but it will still interrupt the render. No, you have to install caffeine, a piece of software that tells the OS to stay awake because deactivating sleeping in the system preferences won't work. Maybe it "just works" if you are using the machine exactly as intended, sure.

quitit 3y ago

You're inventing a scenario that doesn't exist. You would simply change it from Thunderbird's settings (General->System Integration.) A similar function exists in all apps that can take possession of default behaviours. The reason these defaults are per-app is because this approach pre-dates the concept of putting all default behaviours into a unified panel in the system settings: something which would invariably lead to an incomplete list of available applications.

pxc 3y ago
> this approach pre-dates the concept of putting all default behaviours into a unified panel When are we allowed to ask Apple to step it up, then? Because this has been available on other operating systems for many years. > something which would invariably lead to an incomplete list of available applications 1. What makes you think this? Many operating systems handle this just fine, right now, today. Apps register themselves with something like XDG services or Android Intents of whatever and in that way the OS gets a comprehensive list of them. 2. So? Even if a user wants an 'unregistered' app to be a default, you could always let the user browse to a .app folder or an executable or provide a command to execute (with some kind of pattern system for passing a file to be opened as an argument and so on).
kalleboo 3y ago
> this approach pre-dates the concept of putting all default behaviours into a unified panel in the system settings Apple MacOS 8.5 from 1998 had the "Internet" control panel that let you choose your default web/mail/nntp clients. The concept isn't new, even to Apple. > which would invariably lead to an incomplete list of available applications Every app already registers its supported protocols with the OS so it can show the menu of supported apps without it being stale (this is how the menu in Safari/Mail etc shows third-party apps already)