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> For example in Japanese keigo is a skill I just haven't mastered. Other than very common scenarios like introductions, spare yourself the headache. If you a

by csa 3y ago

> For example in Japanese keigo is a skill I just haven't mastered. Other than very common scenarios like introductions, spare yourself the headache. If you are a diplomat or something similar, understanding it might be useful, but using it can be a minefield (e.g., you better know the hierarchy of everyone around you so that you use the appropriate language). > I would love a tool to help put me in positions where I need to use keigo In most if not all cases, if you find yourself in a situation that keigo is both standard and expected, one of two things will likely be true: 1. You will have been selected based on your ability to use keigo (e.g., customer facing roles that use keigo like banks). 2. There will be one or more people in your organization who will make sure you know what you need to know. Most non-native speakers I have known who try to learn keigo use it in really unnatural and sometimes awkward ways. I have known three people who “got it right”, and maybe a fourth. All are super fluent in “normal” Japanese and are lifelong students of the language. 1. Currently a professor of Japanese. PhD in Japanese from U Hawaii. 2. Polymath Cambridge grad who worked for Cambridge University Press. It was not uncommon for Japanese people to whisper to me about how freakishly good his Japanese was, especially when speaking about formal or technical topics. 3. Power nerd who went deep into the Japanese sword drawing martial art (iaidou). Also a professor. 4. Just a guess, but HN’s patio11 is probably good at keigo. I would listen to anything he has to say about the topic over anything I say.

Tainnor 3y ago
Somebody wants to learn a language properly and you're saying "don't bother". I don't get it.
- vore 3y ago
  It's a matter of priority - you can get by fine without using keigo, and instead of learning all the weird intricacies of keigo you could go learn something more practical for day-to-day use first (even native Japanese speakers complain about keigo, e.g. use of manual keigo). Teineigo is perfectly sufficient in everyday use. To put it another way, it's a bit like trying to to learn about how to write in the style of a judicial opinion when you're still learning how to talk to someone at the bar.
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    Well, OP didn't specify what their level was. Maybe they're already fluent? In which case learning more advanced things does make sense. Although I would never trust ChatGPT to use advanced Keigo properly (especially with the lack of context dictated by social settings), let alone to correct it and explain its usage
- csa 3y ago
  > Somebody wants to learn a language properly and you're saying "don't bother". I don't get it. Yeah. I can see that. Let me see if I can expand. 1. Keigo falls into the category of “specific purpose” (SP) language. SP language can be relatively simple things like tourism language, or it can be very deep and technical like scientific, medical, engineering, etc. SP language is typically taught and learned on a need to know basis, and it’s totally possible to be highly fluent (usually measured in terms of general proficiency) and not know anything about SP language. 2. Keigo (and this is way more than basic formal and honorific language) is used in very specific situations. As a foreigner, in almost all cases that matter, there will be an interpreter or the foreigner will be trained in keigo. 3. For reference, I think that most of the keigo that I would recommend a non-native speaker learn can be found at this link (it’s a small and easy to learn list): https://www.fluentu.com/blog/japanese/japanese-keigo/ https://www.fluentu.com/blog/japanese/japanese-keigo/ Furthermore, I think that most of this language is more useful receptively (listening and reading) and will almost never need to be produced (spoken or written). 4. As far as proficiency goes, most keigo would be ILR 5 / CEFR C2, with the basics linked above being ILR 4 / CEFR C1 (used dynamically… much lower as memorized set phrases). When you’re at that level and needing keigo, you know you are lacking in keigo and make an effort to learn it. Before that would probably be a learning sequencing error (other than nerdy curiosity). Beyond learning the content in the link above, most foreigners will not find themselves in the context of needing to know or use keigo. As special purpose language, it should really only be pursued if necessary. Otherwise, the knowledge learned will most likely be forgotten due to lack of use, or it will be used awkwardly and possibly inappropriately (as I mentioned before). If it’s just a nerd itch to scratch, then go for it. For most people, I think there are more compelling aspects of Japanese to spend time on.
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    > Beyond learning the content in the link above If you put it like that - OK. I was under the impression that you were implying "learn no Keigo at all beyond introductions (except Teineigo)", which would seem rather odd to me, as I've definitely heard 行ってまいります, Xでございます, etc. in Anime and movies. If you're talking about the advanced uses that even many native speakers struggle with (unless properly trained), then yeah, maybe it's specialised vocab that you won't necessarily need.
fenomas 3y ago
I'm mystified by this comment. Keigo isn't some high-level PhD topic, it's used constantly in everyday usage. Even an intermediate speaker needs to understand some, or they'll be unable to follow many basic conversations. And sure, nobody is likely to yell at a foreigner for not using it perfectly, but given how common it is it's a very reasonable thing for even an intermediate speaker to want to practice.
- csa 3y ago
  See my reply here for more info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36982980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36982980 > Keigo isn't some high-level PhD topic It gets multiple book level treatment in Japanese (if you’re in Japan, please ask about the keigo section at a decent bookstore), and I am familiar with at least a few post-graduate papers on the topic. Some additional comments: 1. Something like this link (http://keigo.livedoor.biz/archives/cat_14420.html http://keigo.livedoor.biz/archives/cat_14420.html) might be a good intermediate level of keigo. A lot of the less common keigo on those pages get butchered by non-native speakers when they try to use it (mainly because they shouldn’t be using it). > given how common it is it's a very reasonable thing for even an intermediate speaker to want to practice 2. Unless someone is a diplomat, a 会社員 or in some sort of traditional arts, I would humbly suggest that they could go their entire lives without producing any keigo outside of memorized words and phrases (e.g., おはようございます) and could be seen as a highly fluent, high-functioning speaker by Japanese people. The basic link I provided in my first reply and the intermediate link in this reply are plenty to have receptive knowledge of, but one could argue that the important keigo in these lists simply falls under slightly more difficult memorized words and phrases (something acquired relatively early at lower proficiency) rather than advanced generative rules (something acquired much later at higher levels of proficiency). 3. Referring back to your “not a high level PhD topic” comment , I sure as hell would love to read some detailed breakdowns of top tier keigo use and keigo faux pas (especially in high level negotiations). I’ve never seen anything first-hand, but have I heard some stories. I’m pretty sure the best stories never leave the room they were uttered in. To close, I’m not sure what your experience is with Japan and Japanese language, but I get the sense they you and I see keigo very, very differently. Fwiw, I have been part of a training team that trained folks who were in “protocol positions” in Japan, and I can tell you that keigo was a constant sphincter-clinching aspect of that training (usually bypassed with an interpreter in high stakes Japanese-language situations, using English-English most of the other time in less formal situations, and using memorized words and phrases the rest of the time).

by csa 3y ago

Tainnor 3y ago

Somebody wants to learn a language properly and you're saying "don't bother". I don't get it.

vore 3y ago
It's a matter of priority - you can get by fine without using keigo, and instead of learning all the weird intricacies of keigo you could go learn something more practical for day-to-day use first (even native Japanese speakers complain about keigo, e.g. use of manual keigo). Teineigo is perfectly sufficient in everyday use. To put it another way, it's a bit like trying to to learn about how to write in the style of a judicial opinion when you're still learning how to talk to someone at the bar.
- Tainnor 3y ago
  Well, OP didn't specify what their level was. Maybe they're already fluent? In which case learning more advanced things does make sense. Although I would never trust ChatGPT to use advanced Keigo properly (especially with the lack of context dictated by social settings), let alone to correct it and explain its usage
csa 3y ago
> Somebody wants to learn a language properly and you're saying "don't bother". I don't get it. Yeah. I can see that. Let me see if I can expand. 1. Keigo falls into the category of “specific purpose” (SP) language. SP language can be relatively simple things like tourism language, or it can be very deep and technical like scientific, medical, engineering, etc. SP language is typically taught and learned on a need to know basis, and it’s totally possible to be highly fluent (usually measured in terms of general proficiency) and not know anything about SP language. 2. Keigo (and this is way more than basic formal and honorific language) is used in very specific situations. As a foreigner, in almost all cases that matter, there will be an interpreter or the foreigner will be trained in keigo. 3. For reference, I think that most of the keigo that I would recommend a non-native speaker learn can be found at this link (it’s a small and easy to learn list): https://www.fluentu.com/blog/japanese/japanese-keigo/ https://www.fluentu.com/blog/japanese/japanese-keigo/ Furthermore, I think that most of this language is more useful receptively (listening and reading) and will almost never need to be produced (spoken or written). 4. As far as proficiency goes, most keigo would be ILR 5 / CEFR C2, with the basics linked above being ILR 4 / CEFR C1 (used dynamically… much lower as memorized set phrases). When you’re at that level and needing keigo, you know you are lacking in keigo and make an effort to learn it. Before that would probably be a learning sequencing error (other than nerdy curiosity). Beyond learning the content in the link above, most foreigners will not find themselves in the context of needing to know or use keigo. As special purpose language, it should really only be pursued if necessary. Otherwise, the knowledge learned will most likely be forgotten due to lack of use, or it will be used awkwardly and possibly inappropriately (as I mentioned before). If it’s just a nerd itch to scratch, then go for it. For most people, I think there are more compelling aspects of Japanese to spend time on.
- Tainnor 3y ago
  > Beyond learning the content in the link above If you put it like that - OK. I was under the impression that you were implying "learn no Keigo at all beyond introductions (except Teineigo)", which would seem rather odd to me, as I've definitely heard 行ってまいります, Xでございます, etc. in Anime and movies. If you're talking about the advanced uses that even many native speakers struggle with (unless properly trained), then yeah, maybe it's specialised vocab that you won't necessarily need.

fenomas 3y ago

I'm mystified by this comment. Keigo isn't some high-level PhD topic, it's used constantly in everyday usage. Even an intermediate speaker needs to understand some, or they'll be unable to follow many basic conversations. And sure, nobody is likely to yell at a foreigner for not using it perfectly, but given how common it is it's a very reasonable thing for even an intermediate speaker to want to practice.

csa 3y ago
See my reply here for more info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36982980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36982980 > Keigo isn't some high-level PhD topic It gets multiple book level treatment in Japanese (if you’re in Japan, please ask about the keigo section at a decent bookstore), and I am familiar with at least a few post-graduate papers on the topic. Some additional comments: 1. Something like this link (http://keigo.livedoor.biz/archives/cat_14420.html http://keigo.livedoor.biz/archives/cat_14420.html) might be a good intermediate level of keigo. A lot of the less common keigo on those pages get butchered by non-native speakers when they try to use it (mainly because they shouldn’t be using it). > given how common it is it's a very reasonable thing for even an intermediate speaker to want to practice 2. Unless someone is a diplomat, a 会社員 or in some sort of traditional arts, I would humbly suggest that they could go their entire lives without producing any keigo outside of memorized words and phrases (e.g., おはようございます) and could be seen as a highly fluent, high-functioning speaker by Japanese people. The basic link I provided in my first reply and the intermediate link in this reply are plenty to have receptive knowledge of, but one could argue that the important keigo in these lists simply falls under slightly more difficult memorized words and phrases (something acquired relatively early at lower proficiency) rather than advanced generative rules (something acquired much later at higher levels of proficiency). 3. Referring back to your “not a high level PhD topic” comment , I sure as hell would love to read some detailed breakdowns of top tier keigo use and keigo faux pas (especially in high level negotiations). I’ve never seen anything first-hand, but have I heard some stories. I’m pretty sure the best stories never leave the room they were uttered in. To close, I’m not sure what your experience is with Japan and Japanese language, but I get the sense they you and I see keigo very, very differently. Fwiw, I have been part of a training team that trained folks who were in “protocol positions” in Japan, and I can tell you that keigo was a constant sphincter-clinching aspect of that training (usually bypassed with an interpreter in high stakes Japanese-language situations, using English-English most of the other time in less formal situations, and using memorized words and phrases the rest of the time).