2 ms·

The US government didn't drop the bomb to avoid a violent invasion. They were half-sure they might get an easy surrender anyway. They needed to show the Soviet

The US government didn't drop the bomb to avoid a violent invasion. They were half-sure they might get an easy surrender anyway. They needed to show the Soviets what they could do. It was 100% a demonstration. The Soviets knew about it of course, but no one had really seen what it could do. And if it helped end things early enough that the Soviets didn't invade themselves and partition Japan as they were already starting to do in Germany, then that was a bonus. Whether it was morally sound to use it to intimidate Stalin is another question entirely, and I don't know what the answer is. But let's not pretend that it was some balance sheet calculation about how many lives would be lost... it was never that.

krapp 3y ago
This is a conspiracy theory people like to spout when they want to seem like they really understand realpolitik, or because they just can't comprehend the US not having an ulterior motive behind everything, but all of the actual documentary evidence from the time says otherwise.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  > This is a conspiracy theory In what sense? It required no conspiracy at all. You might call it a political science theory... but only in the sense that the theory explains much more than others and is easily corroborated. Just because you find an explanation distasteful, it doesn't make it a "conspiracy theory", and jumping to that label shows how poorly you argue. > or because they just can't comprehend the US not having an ulterior motiv The United States isn't a person. It can't have a "motive". It's a large group of people, a group with ever-changing membership. Each of those people can actually have their own motive, and many of them will have multiple motives. But, at least in that era, you didn't have many people high up in the US government that had stupid motives. They were aware of overtures of surrender well before it was dropped. They were aware that it was unnecessary to force surrender, or at the very least that it wasn't their only option to force surrender without a ground invasion. The Soviets were already the real problem. Indispensable while Germany was curb-stomping its way through Europe, but disgusting enough that there were elements in the government and military that wanted to fight them next. It was necessary for the Soviets to see the bomb and what it could do. This was more necessary than it was to force the Japanese to surrender. > but all of the actual documentary evidence from the time says otherwise. What documentary evidence is that? Most of this shit wasn't written down. Sure, someone wrote down a narrative for the history books, after the fact. One that preserved the "we're the good guys" theme... can't exactly go murdering the unconscious bad guy that had already stopped fighting just to impress the other bad guys. Or rather, you can't admit that's what you were doing.

krapp 3y ago

This is a conspiracy theory people like to spout when they want to seem like they really understand realpolitik, or because they just can't comprehend the US not having an ulterior motive behind everything, but all of the actual documentary evidence from the time says otherwise.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> This is a conspiracy theory In what sense? It required no conspiracy at all. You might call it a political science theory... but only in the sense that the theory explains much more than others and is easily corroborated. Just because you find an explanation distasteful, it doesn't make it a "conspiracy theory", and jumping to that label shows how poorly you argue. > or because they just can't comprehend the US not having an ulterior motiv The United States isn't a person. It can't have a "motive". It's a large group of people, a group with ever-changing membership. Each of those people can actually have their own motive, and many of them will have multiple motives. But, at least in that era, you didn't have many people high up in the US government that had stupid motives. They were aware of overtures of surrender well before it was dropped. They were aware that it was unnecessary to force surrender, or at the very least that it wasn't their only option to force surrender without a ground invasion. The Soviets were already the real problem. Indispensable while Germany was curb-stomping its way through Europe, but disgusting enough that there were elements in the government and military that wanted to fight them next. It was necessary for the Soviets to see the bomb and what it could do. This was more necessary than it was to force the Japanese to surrender. > but all of the actual documentary evidence from the time says otherwise. What documentary evidence is that? Most of this shit wasn't written down. Sure, someone wrote down a narrative for the history books, after the fact. One that preserved the "we're the good guys" theme... can't exactly go murdering the unconscious bad guy that had already stopped fighting just to impress the other bad guys. Or rather, you can't admit that's what you were doing.