6 ms·

Most cars still cost more to charge than to fill up with gas

27 points by metadat 3y ago

metadat 3y ago
https://archive.today/YA6CW https://archive.today/YA6CW
jkubicek 3y ago
Here's a direct link to the source study: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-... edited to update my link to the latest version
- tony_cannistra 3y ago
  Sorry, that's not the correct link. Although that link describes the methodology and data sources, that is the version from 2022. The 2023 source is https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-....
  - jkubicek 3y ago
    Thanks, updated
  - thatfrenchguy 3y ago
    Their data is smelly, from a quick computation from EPA.gov ( https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46356&id=45750&id=45751 https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46356&... ): a Nissan Versa gets so ~2.9 gallons for 100 miles, a Bolt 29kWh / 100 miles, at $5.025 a gallon (current California gas rates) and $0.26 a kWh (PG&E rate) that'd be ~$14.6 vs ~$7.26. If you compare instead in Texas at ~$3.4 a gallon / $0.14 a kWh, $9.86 / $4.06.
    - Vvector 3y ago
      The study also adds in "deadhead" time and miles required to drive to/from commercial chargers. It also calculates 12 hours/month waiting for the charger at $33/hour, so $400 extra a month.
- jkubicek 3y ago
  After reading the summary I linked to and browsing through the source PDF, I don't think these cost comparisons are fair or reasonable. First, they amortize the cost of home charging infrastructure over 5 years, but personally, that's not how I think about those costs. When I'm comparing prices between cars, I'm considering the home charging as a one-time upfront cost. Once I've paid that cost it's not part of my ongoing costs to fuel the car. You could argue that home charging infrastructure is a part of the cost of an electric car, sure, but if you're going to include that in the cost of the electric car, why not include the total cost of ownership for the ICE car as well (oil-changes, tuneups, emissions tests, etc.)? This article feels biased against EVs by only including additional costs of ownership for EVs and ignoring costs for ICs. Also, high-voltage chargers for our home or commercial chargers on the road would be completely unnecessary for my family. We drive infrequently enough that an extension cord snaked to our driveway would be plenty of power.
  - somerandomqaguy 3y ago
    > First, they amortize the cost of home charging infrastructure over 5 years, but personally, that's not how I think about those costs. When I'm comparing prices between cars, I'm considering the home charging as a one-time upfront cost. Once I've paid that cost it's not part of my ongoing costs to fuel the car. Eeeehhhhhh... I don't think it's unfair. The way I think of it would be capital cost to operating cost break even point. If it costs me $X install the equipment, but reduces my per distance operating costs, eventually at some point in the saved operating costs will overtake the initial upfront costs and you're outright saving money. Until that point through you're still technically behind in what you paid though. I do think it's really weird to try and include it in a per KM operating costs as they did though. That's about as twisted up as Tesla saying the real cost of a car is the purchase price - the gas you don't burn price. But at the same time, ignoring the cost of it is also weird to me as well if you want to talk about total cost of ownership. Once you've hit that break even, sure, but until then, eh.
- frob 3y ago
  This doesn't actually compare marginal costs. It factors in fixed costs like the cost of the charger for the EV amortized over five years. It counts road taxes for both types of vehicles, but road taxes are marginal for gas vehicles and fixed for electric ones. It doesn't count the additional marginal costs of maintaining an ICE vehicle over an EV. And all of the taxes come from Michigan, which is one of those states that charge EV and hybrid owners extra to register and have lower gas prices than the rest of the country. I'm almost certain this would give a different result closer to the coasts. This overall study feels like statistical cherry-picking to eeek out a marginal result.
JohnFen 3y ago
Wait, are people buying EVs because they expect to be paying less to power their vehicles? I thought they were buying them for other reasons than that.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  Are Tesla Model S buyers worried about paying less? Probably not. Are entry level EV buyers? Maybe/Probably...
- milesvp 3y ago
  I mean, yes? There was a lot of talk years ago of the benefits of regenerative breaking. At the time the consensus was that for in city driving that could recoup a considerable amount of the energy. Add on top of that the efficiencies of burning fuel in a power station vs ICE, and it sounded like there was a good chance it’d be cheaper. I haven’t heard a lot of those arguments in a long time though. Hard to say if they were founded or if they were just part of the marketing zeitgeist trying to get people excited for electric. And of course, I just realized that no one talked about conditioning, hot and cold with power, that alone could account for some pretty big power bills. Pretty convenient…
- somerandomqaguy 3y ago
  Yes actually. Years ago Tesla's website show of the cost of the Model 3 as ($Purchase Price - $Expected Gas savings), so instead of being presented with a $55,000 CAD purchase price, it was shown as around high $40,000 or something around there. I think that was circa 2017 but I'm not 100% sure. So it was a selling point.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Of course. My £100 saving on fuel offsets some of the £500 lease cost. I also put £20k into my mortgage, freeing up another £200/month to offset. The lease includes insurance, tyres and maintenance. My last car was costing me ~£1200/year on maintenance so it had to go. Fuel was always part of the equation.
- asynchronous 3y ago
  It is cheaper and yes, especially people with long commutes are buying them to save money over time.
throw9away6 3y ago
Nowhere does it say how much the energy price is per kw/h energy prices vary drastically depending on where you live from 10c-35+
mcgingras 3y ago
Where I'm located I'm billed $.07 per kwh. My model 3 LR has a 75 kw battery, so to charge it from totally empty to totally full would cost $5.25. Tesla's claims are a bit inflated, but I can get 300 miles on a full charge, putting the cost to drive 100 miles at $1.75. Even if we took an extremely generous approximate of 50mpg, it would take 2 gallons for an ICE vehicle to travel 100 miles. Where I'm located, gas is going for $4 a gallon, so it would cost $8.00 to travel the same 100 miles in an ICE vehicle. If you're charging at home, the EV easily wins. However, charging away from home can get expensive. During peak hours, it's possible to find charging for $.50 per kwh. Now it would cost $37.50 or $12.50 to drive 100 miles. Compared to the $8.00 in the ICE car, the EV is more expensive. I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that most cars cost more to charge than to fill up with gas. If you are able to charge at home, EVs are cheaper to drive per mile.
- metadat 3y ago
  Most of us don't live in the state of Washington where the electricity flows like wine*. $0.07/kwh is a good bargain these days. The national average across all of the USA is $0.23/kwh Financially speaking, charging at home in California is a losing proposition. * Please forgive me, I couldn't resist the Dumb and Dumber reference :p
  - asynchronous 3y ago
    Don’t live in Washington state, have the same cost of electricity at home. Vote out your elected officials.
  - darth_avocado 3y ago
    I charge at home and it works just fine. I pay $0.25-$0.28/kwh. It puts the cost of a full 75kwh battery at ~$19. That’s still cheaper than paying $4.5-$5/gallon at the gas station. In fact, even if I charge at the supercharger during peak hours, it costs at most the same as buying gas.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
somuchjob 3y ago
> the over-50-page report is the culmination of two years of research by automotive industry experts. And smoking isn't habit forming, your honor.
- cyberge99 3y ago
  My thought exactly. The oil/gas lobby has a strong incentive to publish these “studies”.
darth_avocado 3y ago
Tesla M3 owner. Does it cost more to charge at a supercharger during peak hours in a state where gas is cheap? Absolutely. Does it cost less in states like California where gas is ridiculously expensive using a slow charger at home/workplace? Also absolutely.
- yumraj 3y ago
  > Does it cost less in states like California where gas is ridiculously expensive Electricity is also ridiculously expensive in CA especially in PG&E areas.[0] Off peak is 27 cents with peak rates rising to 58 cents. [0] https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/electric-vehicle-base-plan/electric-vehicle-base-plan.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o...
  - darth_avocado 3y ago
    I charge at home and it works just fine. I pay $0.25-$0.28/kwh. It puts the cost of a full 75kwh battery at ~$19. That’s still cheaper than paying $4.5-$5/gallon at the gas station. In fact, even if I charge at the supercharger during peak hours, it costs at most the same as buying gas.
    - vladgur 3y ago
      Comparing cost of full battery to full tank is meaningless because the ranges are different. How much does it cost to drive 100 miles on model 3 vs say Camry hybrid. My calculations showed that differences are not significant at my $.35 per kWh rate and $4.5 per gallon. Of course camry hybrid costs thousands of dollars less than tesla* and has a range of 500 miles. * my household does not qualify for income based incentives
rchard2scout 3y ago
This is in the U.S., where gas is insanely cheap compared to Europe. I'd be curious to see what the math looks like with, for example, Dutch gas prices, which are currently almost at €2 per liter, which is just over $8 per gallon at current exchange rates.
thorncorona 3y ago
This makes no sense. Nissan leaf is 33 kWH / 100 miles per EPA [1]. Average US kWH cost is $0.17. [2] On average this should cost you $5.61 / 100 miles. The study [3] methodology [4] gives a figure of $12.62 / 100 miles because it says road taxes + cost of charger is $7 / 100 miles, most of which is the charger. Because bundling fixed costs into a variable cost calculation is logical. Lol. [1] https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/44448.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/44448.shtml [2] https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices_selectedareas_table.htm https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices... [3] https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-... [4]
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  It’s not a fair comparison, notably because the “Average” American doesn’t own an EV. Once you start using more power the utility throws you into higher tiers with a higher cost per kWH. Like, using 700 kWH a month might be $70, but 1400 kWH might be $200. Anyone from California knows this well because the tiers are extremely low. The whole economics of EVs starts to fall apart at 30/40/50c per kWH.
frob 3y ago
I can just say that I live in the middle of the US and it currently costs me about 4 cents per mile to drive my Volt on electric and about 9 cents per mile to drive on gas. The factor was closing in on 5 when gas prices peaked.
sabareesh 3y ago
Personally from my experience living in San Diego, California I pay less than 50 $ a month and had the car for 4 years and have around 100K miles . Model 3
sxates 3y ago
A rebuttal: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/26/about-that-scary-evs-cost-more-to-fuel-study-not/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/26/about-that-scary-evs-co... tldr: lots of shady figures went into this to make EVs look as expensive as possible and ICE vehicles look as cheap as possible. Garbage "study".
- xela79 3y ago
  how can a study in 2023 be rebutted something from 2021 ? eh? garbage link
  - jrochkind1 3y ago
    Good to point out, thanks. It's talking about a past study (past edition/version?) from the same source -- Anderson Economic Group. It seems likely they used the same methodology in the 2023 edition and just updated some numbers, but you're right to point out it's not entirely safe to just assume that. It's still not "garbage" to look at what people said about a past report on the same thing with the same conclusions from the same source. One of the main things they point out in this fairly short piece, was that the report included an hourly rate for waiting for a charge was included. That seems to be true in the 2023 "edition" too. That may or may not be "fair" to include, it's a matter of opinion I suppose, but I definitely didn't realize it was a major part of their "expense" calculation until someone pointed it out. (A commenter in the thread here also points it out).
lgats 3y ago
strange they fail to mention a diesel truck is going to cost you a lot more than a gas one.
xyst 3y ago
This sounds like a hack job article by some consulting firm hired by an O&G think tank. Will look at the numbers more closely later. Skimming through it, the numbers don't look right. Also oddly enough, they somehow equate electric trucks as equivalent to ICE trucks in terms of cost to recharge/fuel up?
denimnerd42 3y ago
The math on my bolt euv is way way in favor of the grid at home. it was 3x cheaper to use the grid than my 25mpg car last time I calculated it and I didn't use 100% efficiency of charging either.
jebarker 3y ago
The costs listed in the BI article don't seem to actually match those in the report as far as I can see. e.g. they say charging a Rivian at home for 100 miles would cost over $17 but in the report they list the cost of home charging a luxury EV at ~$12
bee_rider 3y ago
Looking at the study they source, one reason they were able to get the fossil fuel price to low is that gas prices have fallen recently. Anecdotally, gas prices seem to be the mostly wildly fluctuating commodity price that I’ve ever been exposed to as a consumer. I would definitely not tie a necessary function like transportation to something so unpredictable unless I had any other choice. Can’t wait for used EVs to become more widespread.
Vvector 3y ago
Reading the full report, the author is trying to include secondary costs. For example, a Luxury EV using mostly commercial chargers, the owner will spend ~12 hours per month charging at an hourly wage of $33, costing another $401.50 per month. After rolling these secondary costs back into the cost to refuel, some of the EV scenarios are more expensive than ICE.
codeulike 3y ago
Their methodology involves things like including the cost of residential chargers spread over 5 years "(We assume an L1 charger costs $600 and L2 charger with installation in 2021 costs $1,820.40)" and including cost of the time taken to occasionally drive to commercial chargers article here: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-... cost calculation methodology from 2022 here: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/second-edition-real-world-cost-of-fueling-evs-and-ice-vehicles/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/second-edition-real-wo... ... and in more detail here https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/EV_ICE_FuelingCosts_2ed4-5-22.pdf https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/202... They base it all on Michigan so really the headline should end "... in Michigan". In Europe for example it would all look very different.
falcolas 3y ago
An interesting (to me) meta analysis of the discussion here: most people who find the numbers out of whack bring up charging at home at off peak rates. But home ownership is only about 65% in the us, and falling about 1.5% quarterly. That is, home charging is not available to a significant and growing population. Home charging without a garage is pretty risky due to the high value of charging cables. As it stands, a lot of car owners will continue to use gas stations and charging stations, raising their costs accordingly.
Johnny555 3y ago
They don’t give specific numbers, but I took the state with the 10th cheapest gas (SC, $3.50) and 10th most expensive electricity (VT, $0.21/kWh), and compared expenses for a small SUV (Hyundai Kona EV(27kwh/100mi) and Kona ICE (3.1 gal/100mi)) 12000 miles would cost $720/yr in the EV and $1300/yr for the ICE car. I’m not sure how they determined costs for a charger (an EVSE to be pedantic), a 20A level 2 charger can be found for under $400, which would add less than $100/year over 5 years, the wiring to install the charger may cost significantly more, but since it’s a durable addition to your house, it should be amortized over a much longer timeframe, $3000 over 30 years is around $200/year. I think that for most people that can charge at home, the EV is going to be cheaper to fuel, but that depends on EV rates, gas prices and registration fees(but even Texas’s $200/year fee would still leave this Hyundai EV being cheaper). I also excluded oil changes, for 12000 miles, my ICE car would need around 1.5 oil changes/year at $60/each. And of,course, like this report, I ignored the cost difference between the EV and the ICE car, which in this case is around $10,000 ignoring tax breaks. In my case, my EV charge station cost nothing because I use the level 1 10A charger that came with the car and plug it into a normal wall outlet and it more than keeps up with my commute. (And I live in a state with $5 gas and $0.13 electricity, so it makes the EV even cheaper to operate) https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... https://www.gasbuddy.com/usa https://www.gasbuddy.com/usa https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46000&id=45375 https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46000&id=4...
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  That electric price is far from accurate. $.21/kWh is what the average person is paying to power a few light bulbs and occasionally run the oven. Not use an EV that will triple or quadruple the electric usage and be charged at a much higher rate.
  - Johnny555 3y ago
    Green mountain power covers most of the state (by area, if not by population) and their tariff sheet says says they charge $0.18kWh up to 7600 kWh/month (after that you have to move to time of day rates). If you use a smart charger that can turn itself off during peak demand periods they have an off peak demand EV rate of $0.14/kWh, or if you can charge off peak (outside of 1pm to 9pm) for $0.137/kWh https://greenmountainpower.com/rates/ https://greenmountainpower.com/rates/
tzs 3y ago
I've looked at the Chevy Bolt, since that is the cheapest decent EV (after current incentives) in my state. Here's what they say about the Bolt: > If a driver owns a Nissan Versa, Hyundai Elantra, or Kia Forte, it's set to cost them about $9.78 in gas for every 100 miles. > But switch to a Nissan Leaf or Chevrolet Bolt, and that increases to about $12.55 in home-charging expenses The highest mpg ICE car of the three they list gets 39 mpg highway, so 100 miles would use 2.56 gallons. Bolt level 1 charges at 4 miles/hour. Typical home 120 V circuits are 15 A max, so lets assume that is how many amps it charges at. For 100 miles that would be 25 hours @ 4 miles/hour. That would use 25 hours x 120 V x 15 A = 45 kWh of electricity. We pay about $0.12/kWh here which would put 45 kWh at $5.40. The Bolt wins unless I can get gas for under $2.11/gallon. It's over $5/gallon here right now, so the Bolt wins big. Furthermore, Google tells me the Bolt actually only charges at 8 A at 120 V. If that is what the 4 miles/hour charge rate is based on then the Bolt would actually win unless gas was below $1.13/gallon. Google also tells me that there is a manual override that raises it to 12 A. If that's what the 4 miles/hour was based on gas would need to be under $1.69/gallon for the Bolt to lose. Looking at this from the other direction, the state with the cheapest gas right now is Mississippi at around $3.30/gallon, which would be $8.45 for 100 miles in a Kia Forte. Using 4 miles/hour charge @ 120 V, 12 A for the Bolt gives 36 kWh for 100 miles of charge. That would beat a Kia Forte on Mississippi gas anyplace where electricity is under $0.23/kWh. That's every state except Alaska, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, California, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Hawaii. In general, the Bolt wins when charged at level 1 at home given electricity at $E/kWh and gas at $G/gallon if: 14.1 < G/E Here is G, E, and G/E for US states and DC: G E G/E State $4.72 $0.42 11.2 Hawaii $3.65 $0.31 11.9 New Hampshire $3.79 $0.31 12.1 Connecticut $3.71 $0.29 12.8 Massachusetts $3.78 $0.29 12.9 Maine $3.70 $0.27 13.8 Rhode Island ----- Bolt wins below this line ----- $5.03 $0.30 16.9 California $4.37 $0.25 17.6 Alaska $3.76 $0.21 17.9 Vermont $3.87 $0.20 18.9 New York $3.66 $0.19 19.7 Michigan $3.59 $0.17 20.7 Wisconsin $3.87 $0.18 21.2 Pennsylvania $3.72 $0.17 21.7 New Jersey $3.66 $0.17 22.0 Delaware $3.48 $0.15 22.5 Ohio $4.02 $0.18 22.5 Illinois $3.94 $0.17 23.1 District of Columbia $3.31 $0.14 23.5 Mississippi $3.78 $0.16 23.5 Maryland $3.44 $0.15 23.7 Alabama $3.64 $0.15 23.9 Virginia $3.48 $0.14 24.0 Texas $3.67 $0.15 24.3 Indiana $3.56 $0.15 24.3 West Virginia $3.53 $0.14 24.5 South Carolina $4.32 $0.17 24.8 Nevada $3.80 $0.15 25.0 Minnesota $3.82 $0.15 25.1 Florida $3.57 $0.14 25.3 Kansas $3.63 $0.14 25.9 Georgia $3.77 $0.14 26.6 Iowa $3.86 $0.14 27.0 Arizona $3.59 $0.13 27.1 North Carolina $3.46 $0.13 27.6 Kentucky $3.97 $0.14 27.6 Colorado $3.47 $0.12 28.1 Tennessee $3.74 $0.13 28.1 New Mexico $3.47 $0.12 28.2 Arkansas $3.58 $0.12 28.7 Missouri $3.77 $0.13 29.0 South Dakota $3.42 $0.12 29.2 Louisiana $3.53 $0.12 29.8 Oklahoma $3.94 $0.13 30.7 Montana $3.68 $0.12 31.0 Nebraska $3.71 $0.12 31.7 North Dakota $3.83 $0.12 32.1 Wyoming $4.63 $0.13 35.8 Oregon $3.98 $0.11 36.8 Idaho $4.06 $0.11 37.4 Utah $4.97 $0.11 44.5 Washington
back7co 3y ago
Charging at home easily wins, especially if you have built out your solar accordingly. Many states like CA require a limit of 150% current use as the max for what you can build, but it's just as easy to get the car first. On top of that, the article doesn't mention maintenance. That may not be as much of an issue with a mid-market car like a Toyota, but cars like Tesla have far lower maintenance bills that up-market brands like Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, etc. It's easy to spend $2k/year on maintenance for luxury cars- sometimes far more than that.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
planet_1649c 3y ago
The report uses commercial charges for 75% of the time and adds road tax on top of it. Looks like someone doesn’t like electric cars
huijzer 3y ago
Yet another example of misinformation being most likely backed by traditional OEMs or oil companies. I don’t agree with all of Elon’s choices but this kind of crap makes things more understandable.
jrochkind1 3y ago
This is surprising to me, and I'm getting confused. A hybrid that you don't plug in, clearly gets better gas mileage than a gas car, so must cost less per mile? (Or is the original research amortizing the more expensive original purchase price too?) But does that mean that "traditional" (not plug-in) hybrids are cheaper to power per-mile than either full ICE or full EV? That seems surprising too. (And then what about plug-in hybrids?)
xnx 3y ago
Fuel cost is only one of the per-mile costs for a vehicle. Lifetime total cost of ownership still looks good for electric compared to gas: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/electric-vehicles-total-cost-of-ownership-tool https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/electric-... I've also never seen a calculator that includes the time cost of refueling and maintenance for ICE vehicles.

27 points by metadat 3y ago

https://archive.today/YA6CW https://archive.today/YA6CW

Here's a direct link to the source study: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-... edited to update my link to the latest version

tony_cannistra 3y ago
Sorry, that's not the correct link. Although that link describes the methodology and data sources, that is the version from 2022. The 2023 source is https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-....
- jkubicek 3y ago
  Thanks, updated
- thatfrenchguy 3y ago
  Their data is smelly, from a quick computation from EPA.gov ( https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46356&id=45750&id=45751 https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46356&... ): a Nissan Versa gets so ~2.9 gallons for 100 miles, a Bolt 29kWh / 100 miles, at $5.025 a gallon (current California gas rates) and $0.26 a kWh (PG&E rate) that'd be ~$14.6 vs ~$7.26. If you compare instead in Texas at ~$3.4 a gallon / $0.14 a kWh, $9.86 / $4.06.
  - Vvector 3y ago
    The study also adds in "deadhead" time and miles required to drive to/from commercial chargers. It also calculates 12 hours/month waiting for the charger at $33/hour, so $400 extra a month.
jkubicek 3y ago
After reading the summary I linked to and browsing through the source PDF, I don't think these cost comparisons are fair or reasonable. First, they amortize the cost of home charging infrastructure over 5 years, but personally, that's not how I think about those costs. When I'm comparing prices between cars, I'm considering the home charging as a one-time upfront cost. Once I've paid that cost it's not part of my ongoing costs to fuel the car. You could argue that home charging infrastructure is a part of the cost of an electric car, sure, but if you're going to include that in the cost of the electric car, why not include the total cost of ownership for the ICE car as well (oil-changes, tuneups, emissions tests, etc.)? This article feels biased against EVs by only including additional costs of ownership for EVs and ignoring costs for ICs. Also, high-voltage chargers for our home or commercial chargers on the road would be completely unnecessary for my family. We drive infrequently enough that an extension cord snaked to our driveway would be plenty of power.
- somerandomqaguy 3y ago
  > First, they amortize the cost of home charging infrastructure over 5 years, but personally, that's not how I think about those costs. When I'm comparing prices between cars, I'm considering the home charging as a one-time upfront cost. Once I've paid that cost it's not part of my ongoing costs to fuel the car. Eeeehhhhhh... I don't think it's unfair. The way I think of it would be capital cost to operating cost break even point. If it costs me $X install the equipment, but reduces my per distance operating costs, eventually at some point in the saved operating costs will overtake the initial upfront costs and you're outright saving money. Until that point through you're still technically behind in what you paid though. I do think it's really weird to try and include it in a per KM operating costs as they did though. That's about as twisted up as Tesla saying the real cost of a car is the purchase price - the gas you don't burn price. But at the same time, ignoring the cost of it is also weird to me as well if you want to talk about total cost of ownership. Once you've hit that break even, sure, but until then, eh.
frob 3y ago
This doesn't actually compare marginal costs. It factors in fixed costs like the cost of the charger for the EV amortized over five years. It counts road taxes for both types of vehicles, but road taxes are marginal for gas vehicles and fixed for electric ones. It doesn't count the additional marginal costs of maintaining an ICE vehicle over an EV. And all of the taxes come from Michigan, which is one of those states that charge EV and hybrid owners extra to register and have lower gas prices than the rest of the country. I'm almost certain this would give a different result closer to the coasts. This overall study feels like statistical cherry-picking to eeek out a marginal result.

JohnFen 3y ago

Wait, are people buying EVs because they expect to be paying less to power their vehicles? I thought they were buying them for other reasons than that.

JimtheCoder 3y ago
Are Tesla Model S buyers worried about paying less? Probably not. Are entry level EV buyers? Maybe/Probably...
milesvp 3y ago
I mean, yes? There was a lot of talk years ago of the benefits of regenerative breaking. At the time the consensus was that for in city driving that could recoup a considerable amount of the energy. Add on top of that the efficiencies of burning fuel in a power station vs ICE, and it sounded like there was a good chance it’d be cheaper. I haven’t heard a lot of those arguments in a long time though. Hard to say if they were founded or if they were just part of the marketing zeitgeist trying to get people excited for electric. And of course, I just realized that no one talked about conditioning, hot and cold with power, that alone could account for some pretty big power bills. Pretty convenient…
somerandomqaguy 3y ago
Yes actually. Years ago Tesla's website show of the cost of the Model 3 as ($Purchase Price - $Expected Gas savings), so instead of being presented with a $55,000 CAD purchase price, it was shown as around high $40,000 or something around there. I think that was circa 2017 but I'm not 100% sure. So it was a selling point.
thebruce87m 3y ago
Of course. My £100 saving on fuel offsets some of the £500 lease cost. I also put £20k into my mortgage, freeing up another £200/month to offset. The lease includes insurance, tyres and maintenance. My last car was costing me ~£1200/year on maintenance so it had to go. Fuel was always part of the equation.
asynchronous 3y ago
It is cheaper and yes, especially people with long commutes are buying them to save money over time.

throw9away6 3y ago

Nowhere does it say how much the energy price is per kw/h energy prices vary drastically depending on where you live from 10c-35+

mcgingras 3y ago

Where I'm located I'm billed $.07 per kwh. My model 3 LR has a 75 kw battery, so to charge it from totally empty to totally full would cost $5.25. Tesla's claims are a bit inflated, but I can get 300 miles on a full charge, putting the cost to drive 100 miles at $1.75. Even if we took an extremely generous approximate of 50mpg, it would take 2 gallons for an ICE vehicle to travel 100 miles. Where I'm located, gas is going for $4 a gallon, so it would cost $8.00 to travel the same 100 miles in an ICE vehicle. If you're charging at home, the EV easily wins. However, charging away from home can get expensive. During peak hours, it's possible to find charging for $.50 per kwh. Now it would cost $37.50 or $12.50 to drive 100 miles. Compared to the $8.00 in the ICE car, the EV is more expensive. I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that most cars cost more to charge than to fill up with gas. If you are able to charge at home, EVs are cheaper to drive per mile.

metadat 3y ago
Most of us don't live in the state of Washington where the electricity flows like wine*. $0.07/kwh is a good bargain these days. The national average across all of the USA is $0.23/kwh Financially speaking, charging at home in California is a losing proposition. * Please forgive me, I couldn't resist the Dumb and Dumber reference :p
- asynchronous 3y ago
  Don’t live in Washington state, have the same cost of electricity at home. Vote out your elected officials.
- darth_avocado 3y ago
  I charge at home and it works just fine. I pay $0.25-$0.28/kwh. It puts the cost of a full 75kwh battery at ~$19. That’s still cheaper than paying $4.5-$5/gallon at the gas station. In fact, even if I charge at the supercharger during peak hours, it costs at most the same as buying gas.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago

somuchjob 3y ago

> the over-50-page report is the culmination of two years of research by automotive industry experts. And smoking isn't habit forming, your honor.

cyberge99 3y ago
My thought exactly. The oil/gas lobby has a strong incentive to publish these “studies”.

darth_avocado 3y ago

Tesla M3 owner. Does it cost more to charge at a supercharger during peak hours in a state where gas is cheap? Absolutely. Does it cost less in states like California where gas is ridiculously expensive using a slow charger at home/workplace? Also absolutely.

yumraj 3y ago
> Does it cost less in states like California where gas is ridiculously expensive Electricity is also ridiculously expensive in CA especially in PG&E areas.[0] Off peak is 27 cents with peak rates rising to 58 cents. [0] https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/electric-vehicle-base-plan/electric-vehicle-base-plan.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o...
- darth_avocado 3y ago
  I charge at home and it works just fine. I pay $0.25-$0.28/kwh. It puts the cost of a full 75kwh battery at ~$19. That’s still cheaper than paying $4.5-$5/gallon at the gas station. In fact, even if I charge at the supercharger during peak hours, it costs at most the same as buying gas.
  - vladgur 3y ago
    Comparing cost of full battery to full tank is meaningless because the ranges are different. How much does it cost to drive 100 miles on model 3 vs say Camry hybrid. My calculations showed that differences are not significant at my $.35 per kWh rate and $4.5 per gallon. Of course camry hybrid costs thousands of dollars less than tesla* and has a range of 500 miles. * my household does not qualify for income based incentives

rchard2scout 3y ago

This is in the U.S., where gas is insanely cheap compared to Europe. I'd be curious to see what the math looks like with, for example, Dutch gas prices, which are currently almost at €2 per liter, which is just over $8 per gallon at current exchange rates.

thorncorona 3y ago

This makes no sense. Nissan leaf is 33 kWH / 100 miles per EPA [1]. Average US kWH cost is $0.17. [2] On average this should cost you $5.61 / 100 miles. The study [3] methodology [4] gives a figure of $12.62 / 100 miles because it says road taxes + cost of charger is $7 / 100 miles, most of which is the charger. Because bundling fixed costs into a variable cost calculation is logical. Lol. [1] https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/44448.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/44448.shtml [2] https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices_selectedareas_table.htm https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices... [3] https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-... [4]

oceanplexian 3y ago
It’s not a fair comparison, notably because the “Average” American doesn’t own an EV. Once you start using more power the utility throws you into higher tiers with a higher cost per kWH. Like, using 700 kWH a month might be $70, but 1400 kWH might be $200. Anyone from California knows this well because the tiers are extremely low. The whole economics of EVs starts to fall apart at 30/40/50c per kWH.

frob 3y ago

I can just say that I live in the middle of the US and it currently costs me about 4 cents per mile to drive my Volt on electric and about 9 cents per mile to drive on gas. The factor was closing in on 5 when gas prices peaked.

sabareesh 3y ago

Personally from my experience living in San Diego, California I pay less than 50 $ a month and had the car for 4 years and have around 100K miles . Model 3

sxates 3y ago

A rebuttal: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/26/about-that-scary-evs-cost-more-to-fuel-study-not/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/26/about-that-scary-evs-co... tldr: lots of shady figures went into this to make EVs look as expensive as possible and ICE vehicles look as cheap as possible. Garbage "study".

xela79 3y ago
how can a study in 2023 be rebutted something from 2021 ? eh? garbage link
- jrochkind1 3y ago
  Good to point out, thanks. It's talking about a past study (past edition/version?) from the same source -- Anderson Economic Group. It seems likely they used the same methodology in the 2023 edition and just updated some numbers, but you're right to point out it's not entirely safe to just assume that. It's still not "garbage" to look at what people said about a past report on the same thing with the same conclusions from the same source. One of the main things they point out in this fairly short piece, was that the report included an hourly rate for waiting for a charge was included. That seems to be true in the 2023 "edition" too. That may or may not be "fair" to include, it's a matter of opinion I suppose, but I definitely didn't realize it was a major part of their "expense" calculation until someone pointed it out. (A commenter in the thread here also points it out).

lgats 3y ago

strange they fail to mention a diesel truck is going to cost you a lot more than a gas one.

xyst 3y ago

This sounds like a hack job article by some consulting firm hired by an O&G think tank. Will look at the numbers more closely later. Skimming through it, the numbers don't look right. Also oddly enough, they somehow equate electric trucks as equivalent to ICE trucks in terms of cost to recharge/fuel up?

denimnerd42 3y ago

The math on my bolt euv is way way in favor of the grid at home. it was 3x cheaper to use the grid than my 25mpg car last time I calculated it and I didn't use 100% efficiency of charging either.

jebarker 3y ago

The costs listed in the BI article don't seem to actually match those in the report as far as I can see. e.g. they say charging a Rivian at home for 100 miles would cost over $17 but in the report they list the cost of home charging a luxury EV at ~$12

bee_rider 3y ago

Looking at the study they source, one reason they were able to get the fossil fuel price to low is that gas prices have fallen recently. Anecdotally, gas prices seem to be the mostly wildly fluctuating commodity price that I’ve ever been exposed to as a consumer. I would definitely not tie a necessary function like transportation to something so unpredictable unless I had any other choice. Can’t wait for used EVs to become more widespread.

Vvector 3y ago

Reading the full report, the author is trying to include secondary costs. For example, a Luxury EV using mostly commercial chargers, the owner will spend ~12 hours per month charging at an hourly wage of $33, costing another $401.50 per month. After rolling these secondary costs back into the cost to refuel, some of the EV scenarios are more expensive than ICE.

codeulike 3y ago

Their methodology involves things like including the cost of residential chargers spread over 5 years "(We assume an L1 charger costs $600 and L2 charger with installation in 2021 costs $1,820.40)" and including cost of the time taken to occasionally drive to commercial chargers article here: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-... cost calculation methodology from 2022 here: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/second-edition-real-world-cost-of-fueling-evs-and-ice-vehicles/ https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/second-edition-real-wo... ... and in more detail here https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/EV_ICE_FuelingCosts_2ed4-5-22.pdf https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/202... They base it all on Michigan so really the headline should end "... in Michigan". In Europe for example it would all look very different.

falcolas 3y ago

An interesting (to me) meta analysis of the discussion here: most people who find the numbers out of whack bring up charging at home at off peak rates. But home ownership is only about 65% in the us, and falling about 1.5% quarterly. That is, home charging is not available to a significant and growing population. Home charging without a garage is pretty risky due to the high value of charging cables. As it stands, a lot of car owners will continue to use gas stations and charging stations, raising their costs accordingly.

Johnny555 3y ago

They don’t give specific numbers, but I took the state with the 10th cheapest gas (SC, $3.50) and 10th most expensive electricity (VT, $0.21/kWh), and compared expenses for a small SUV (Hyundai Kona EV(27kwh/100mi) and Kona ICE (3.1 gal/100mi)) 12000 miles would cost $720/yr in the EV and $1300/yr for the ICE car. I’m not sure how they determined costs for a charger (an EVSE to be pedantic), a 20A level 2 charger can be found for under $400, which would add less than $100/year over 5 years, the wiring to install the charger may cost significantly more, but since it’s a durable addition to your house, it should be amortized over a much longer timeframe, $3000 over 30 years is around $200/year. I think that for most people that can charge at home, the EV is going to be cheaper to fuel, but that depends on EV rates, gas prices and registration fees(but even Texas’s $200/year fee would still leave this Hyundai EV being cheaper). I also excluded oil changes, for 12000 miles, my ICE car would need around 1.5 oil changes/year at $60/each. And of,course, like this report, I ignored the cost difference between the EV and the ICE car, which in this case is around $10,000 ignoring tax breaks. In my case, my EV charge station cost nothing because I use the level 1 10A charger that came with the car and plug it into a normal wall outlet and it more than keeps up with my commute. (And I live in a state with $5 gas and $0.13 electricity, so it makes the EV even cheaper to operate) https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... https://www.gasbuddy.com/usa https://www.gasbuddy.com/usa https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46000&id=45375 https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46000&id=4...

oceanplexian 3y ago
That electric price is far from accurate. $.21/kWh is what the average person is paying to power a few light bulbs and occasionally run the oven. Not use an EV that will triple or quadruple the electric usage and be charged at a much higher rate.
- Johnny555 3y ago
  Green mountain power covers most of the state (by area, if not by population) and their tariff sheet says says they charge $0.18kWh up to 7600 kWh/month (after that you have to move to time of day rates). If you use a smart charger that can turn itself off during peak demand periods they have an off peak demand EV rate of $0.14/kWh, or if you can charge off peak (outside of 1pm to 9pm) for $0.137/kWh https://greenmountainpower.com/rates/ https://greenmountainpower.com/rates/

tzs 3y ago

I've looked at the Chevy Bolt, since that is the cheapest decent EV (after current incentives) in my state. Here's what they say about the Bolt: > If a driver owns a Nissan Versa, Hyundai Elantra, or Kia Forte, it's set to cost them about $9.78 in gas for every 100 miles. > But switch to a Nissan Leaf or Chevrolet Bolt, and that increases to about $12.55 in home-charging expenses The highest mpg ICE car of the three they list gets 39 mpg highway, so 100 miles would use 2.56 gallons. Bolt level 1 charges at 4 miles/hour. Typical home 120 V circuits are 15 A max, so lets assume that is how many amps it charges at. For 100 miles that would be 25 hours @ 4 miles/hour. That would use 25 hours x 120 V x 15 A = 45 kWh of electricity. We pay about $0.12/kWh here which would put 45 kWh at $5.40. The Bolt wins unless I can get gas for under $2.11/gallon. It's over $5/gallon here right now, so the Bolt wins big. Furthermore, Google tells me the Bolt actually only charges at 8 A at 120 V. If that is what the 4 miles/hour charge rate is based on then the Bolt would actually win unless gas was below $1.13/gallon. Google also tells me that there is a manual override that raises it to 12 A. If that's what the 4 miles/hour was based on gas would need to be under $1.69/gallon for the Bolt to lose. Looking at this from the other direction, the state with the cheapest gas right now is Mississippi at around $3.30/gallon, which would be $8.45 for 100 miles in a Kia Forte. Using 4 miles/hour charge @ 120 V, 12 A for the Bolt gives 36 kWh for 100 miles of charge. That would beat a Kia Forte on Mississippi gas anyplace where electricity is under $0.23/kWh. That's every state except Alaska, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, California, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Hawaii. In general, the Bolt wins when charged at level 1 at home given electricity at $E/kWh and gas at $G/gallon if: 14.1 < G/E Here is G, E, and G/E for US states and DC: G E G/E State $4.72 $0.42 11.2 Hawaii $3.65 $0.31 11.9 New Hampshire $3.79 $0.31 12.1 Connecticut $3.71 $0.29 12.8 Massachusetts $3.78 $0.29 12.9 Maine $3.70 $0.27 13.8 Rhode Island ----- Bolt wins below this line ----- $5.03 $0.30 16.9 California $4.37 $0.25 17.6 Alaska $3.76 $0.21 17.9 Vermont $3.87 $0.20 18.9 New York $3.66 $0.19 19.7 Michigan $3.59 $0.17 20.7 Wisconsin $3.87 $0.18 21.2 Pennsylvania $3.72 $0.17 21.7 New Jersey $3.66 $0.17 22.0 Delaware $3.48 $0.15 22.5 Ohio $4.02 $0.18 22.5 Illinois $3.94 $0.17 23.1 District of Columbia $3.31 $0.14 23.5 Mississippi $3.78 $0.16 23.5 Maryland $3.44 $0.15 23.7 Alabama $3.64 $0.15 23.9 Virginia $3.48 $0.14 24.0 Texas $3.67 $0.15 24.3 Indiana $3.56 $0.15 24.3 West Virginia $3.53 $0.14 24.5 South Carolina $4.32 $0.17 24.8 Nevada $3.80 $0.15 25.0 Minnesota $3.82 $0.15 25.1 Florida $3.57 $0.14 25.3 Kansas $3.63 $0.14 25.9 Georgia $3.77 $0.14 26.6 Iowa $3.86 $0.14 27.0 Arizona $3.59 $0.13 27.1 North Carolina $3.46 $0.13 27.6 Kentucky $3.97 $0.14 27.6 Colorado $3.47 $0.12 28.1 Tennessee $3.74 $0.13 28.1 New Mexico $3.47 $0.12 28.2 Arkansas $3.58 $0.12 28.7 Missouri $3.77 $0.13 29.0 South Dakota $3.42 $0.12 29.2 Louisiana $3.53 $0.12 29.8 Oklahoma $3.94 $0.13 30.7 Montana $3.68 $0.12 31.0 Nebraska $3.71 $0.12 31.7 North Dakota $3.83 $0.12 32.1 Wyoming $4.63 $0.13 35.8 Oregon $3.98 $0.11 36.8 Idaho $4.06 $0.11 37.4 Utah $4.97 $0.11 44.5 Washington

back7co 3y ago

Charging at home easily wins, especially if you have built out your solar accordingly. Many states like CA require a limit of 150% current use as the max for what you can build, but it's just as easy to get the car first. On top of that, the article doesn't mention maintenance. That may not be as much of an issue with a mid-market car like a Toyota, but cars like Tesla have far lower maintenance bills that up-market brands like Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, etc. It's easy to spend $2k/year on maintenance for luxury cars- sometimes far more than that.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

planet_1649c 3y ago

The report uses commercial charges for 75% of the time and adds road tax on top of it. Looks like someone doesn’t like electric cars

huijzer 3y ago

Yet another example of misinformation being most likely backed by traditional OEMs or oil companies. I don’t agree with all of Elon’s choices but this kind of crap makes things more understandable.

jrochkind1 3y ago

This is surprising to me, and I'm getting confused. A hybrid that you don't plug in, clearly gets better gas mileage than a gas car, so must cost less per mile? (Or is the original research amortizing the more expensive original purchase price too?) But does that mean that "traditional" (not plug-in) hybrids are cheaper to power per-mile than either full ICE or full EV? That seems surprising too. (And then what about plug-in hybrids?)

xnx 3y ago

Fuel cost is only one of the per-mile costs for a vehicle. Lifetime total cost of ownership still looks good for electric compared to gas: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/electric-vehicles-total-cost-of-ownership-tool https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/electric-... I've also never seen a calculator that includes the time cost of refueling and maintenance for ICE vehicles.