5 ms·

True but this is exactly the sort of thing the FTC should be cracking down on. Consumer protections in the US are a joke.

nickff 3y ago
How would the FTC fix this, other than by eliminating DRM (which is supported/endorsed by the US Government in legislation and by enforcement)?
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  Force that "Buy" button to read "Lease" or "Rent". The moment consumers understand it's not a real sale, they will pay more for the media they like.
  - jachee 3y ago
    I think “License” would be the most-honest label.
- whycome 3y ago
  Making it so that the term ‘buy’ can’t be used unless you have unrestricted access?
- derefr 3y ago
  Make sales of IP sub-licenses detach from their retailer and become direct licensing relationships between the rootmost IP owner and the buyer, represented in some public-good digital ledger of IP licenses. If I buy e.g. a game from publisher Foo on Steam, then I should be able to then freely download that game not only from Steam, but from any digital distributor who chooses to carry that game — including distributors that weren't even in business yet at the time I bought the game. Being a distributor of digital good X for your own customers, should legally obligate you to be a distributor for digital good X more generally, for anyone who has an IP license for digital good X. When I bought the game from publisher Foo on steam, I was really just paying Steam to go acquire for me an indefinite IP license from publisher Foo. Now that I have that license, I should be able to present it to any of these distributors to say "I have a license to consume this, so you have an obligation to deliver me a copy of it just as if I had bought it from you." Steam should not be able to hold that IP license hostage; it's not theirs, any more than a retail product I paid Amazon to ship to me is theirs. The IP license is now mine; I bought it; I own it. I don't own the work itself; but I do own the license itself. If I was a corporation, the license would be an asset on my balance sheet. (And as well, acquiring this IP license should mean that I can also freely download the game from random websites/torrents. The distributor might not have a right to distribute the work, and so might get in trouble for sending it to me; but I shouldn't get in trouble for requesting or receiving it!)
  - wmf 3y ago
    Movies Anywhere (formerly Ultraviolet) is kind of doing this at a limited scale.
  - molave 3y ago
    > (And as well, acquiring this IP license should mean that I can also freely download the game from random websites/torrents. The distributor might not have a right to distribute the work, and so might get in trouble for sending it to me; but I shouldn't get in trouble for requesting or receiving it!) You're into something. I like this.
- CoolGuySteve 3y ago
  By forcing lincensors to refund any license that has been invalidated. The idea that an EULA acts as a magic password to take your money and delete your IP at any time is fanciful. They've already sued MoviePass for the same kind of abusive shenanigans. https://buckleyfirm.com/blog/2021-06-09/ftc-alleges-subscription-service-failed-provide-access-paid-services-or-secure-personal-data https://buckleyfirm.com/blog/2021-06-09/ftc-alleges-subscrip...
  - Guvante 3y ago
    While we need better consumer protections forcing full refunds when you try to defraud a company doesn't make sense either. Sure there is the potential that this poster was innocent but Apple's fraud division certainly isn't missing all of its bans... BTW you can thank credit card companies for these scorched earth policies. You can't accept credit cards unless you keep your fraud count below a certain threshold. This was because Visa et al never developed anti fraud techniques in the pre-internet era and realized it was easier to just ban anyone with too much fraud.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      > While we need better consumer protections forcing full refunds when you try to defraud a company doesn't make sense either. Why not? If the license is revoked then it should be refunded. They are not forced to revoke licenses after all - they can very well ban further purchases from allegedly-fraudulent accounts while allowing them to consume whatever they've already successfully paid for (and that hasn't been charged back obviously) and then they wouldn't have to refund anything.
      - Guvante 3y ago
        You don't get a refund from Disneyland if they kick you out for stealing. Additionally typically most of the value of the things people purchased is over when actions are taken. You can argue they are owed something but a complete refund is a stretch. For instance at minimum any show can't be worth more than the delta between renting it the number of times you watched and what you paid.
- worik 3y ago
  > How would the FTC fix this, other than by eliminating DRM You said it
joshstrange 3y ago
CFPB (Consumer Financial Protection Bureau) Complaints are a _powerful_ tool that I highly recommend people take advantage of. If a company is giving you the run around then filing one of these will get someone reaching out to you (no holds, no wait times) and they are highly motivated to solve the issue.

nickff 3y ago

How would the FTC fix this, other than by eliminating DRM (which is supported/endorsed by the US Government in legislation and by enforcement)?

vorpalhex 3y ago
Force that "Buy" button to read "Lease" or "Rent". The moment consumers understand it's not a real sale, they will pay more for the media they like.
- jachee 3y ago
  I think “License” would be the most-honest label.
whycome 3y ago
Making it so that the term ‘buy’ can’t be used unless you have unrestricted access?
derefr 3y ago
Make sales of IP sub-licenses detach from their retailer and become direct licensing relationships between the rootmost IP owner and the buyer, represented in some public-good digital ledger of IP licenses. If I buy e.g. a game from publisher Foo on Steam, then I should be able to then freely download that game not only from Steam, but from any digital distributor who chooses to carry that game — including distributors that weren't even in business yet at the time I bought the game. Being a distributor of digital good X for your own customers, should legally obligate you to be a distributor for digital good X more generally, for anyone who has an IP license for digital good X. When I bought the game from publisher Foo on steam, I was really just paying Steam to go acquire for me an indefinite IP license from publisher Foo. Now that I have that license, I should be able to present it to any of these distributors to say "I have a license to consume this, so you have an obligation to deliver me a copy of it just as if I had bought it from you." Steam should not be able to hold that IP license hostage; it's not theirs, any more than a retail product I paid Amazon to ship to me is theirs. The IP license is now mine; I bought it; I own it. I don't own the work itself; but I do own the license itself. If I was a corporation, the license would be an asset on my balance sheet. (And as well, acquiring this IP license should mean that I can also freely download the game from random websites/torrents. The distributor might not have a right to distribute the work, and so might get in trouble for sending it to me; but I shouldn't get in trouble for requesting or receiving it!)
- wmf 3y ago
  Movies Anywhere (formerly Ultraviolet) is kind of doing this at a limited scale.
- molave 3y ago
  > (And as well, acquiring this IP license should mean that I can also freely download the game from random websites/torrents. The distributor might not have a right to distribute the work, and so might get in trouble for sending it to me; but I shouldn't get in trouble for requesting or receiving it!) You're into something. I like this.
CoolGuySteve 3y ago
By forcing lincensors to refund any license that has been invalidated. The idea that an EULA acts as a magic password to take your money and delete your IP at any time is fanciful. They've already sued MoviePass for the same kind of abusive shenanigans. https://buckleyfirm.com/blog/2021-06-09/ftc-alleges-subscription-service-failed-provide-access-paid-services-or-secure-personal-data https://buckleyfirm.com/blog/2021-06-09/ftc-alleges-subscrip...
- Guvante 3y ago
  While we need better consumer protections forcing full refunds when you try to defraud a company doesn't make sense either. Sure there is the potential that this poster was innocent but Apple's fraud division certainly isn't missing all of its bans... BTW you can thank credit card companies for these scorched earth policies. You can't accept credit cards unless you keep your fraud count below a certain threshold. This was because Visa et al never developed anti fraud techniques in the pre-internet era and realized it was easier to just ban anyone with too much fraud.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    > While we need better consumer protections forcing full refunds when you try to defraud a company doesn't make sense either. Why not? If the license is revoked then it should be refunded. They are not forced to revoke licenses after all - they can very well ban further purchases from allegedly-fraudulent accounts while allowing them to consume whatever they've already successfully paid for (and that hasn't been charged back obviously) and then they wouldn't have to refund anything.
    - Guvante 3y ago
      You don't get a refund from Disneyland if they kick you out for stealing. Additionally typically most of the value of the things people purchased is over when actions are taken. You can argue they are owed something but a complete refund is a stretch. For instance at minimum any show can't be worth more than the delta between renting it the number of times you watched and what you paid.
worik 3y ago
> How would the FTC fix this, other than by eliminating DRM You said it

joshstrange 3y ago

CFPB (Consumer Financial Protection Bureau) Complaints are a _powerful_ tool that I highly recommend people take advantage of. If a company is giving you the run around then filing one of these will get someone reaching out to you (no holds, no wait times) and they are highly motivated to solve the issue.