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> Nearly 4,000 people died in fires, the highest number in close to 20 years, making for a death rate of nearly twice that of western Europe. This seems partic

> Nearly 4,000 people died in fires, the highest number in close to 20 years, making for a death rate of nearly twice that of western Europe. This seems particularly damning considering that in the name of fire safety, the USA (and Canada) goes to the effort to build two stairways in apartment buildings, which makes them harder to build, and compromises the design in making them subjectively worse to live in. Europe does not do this extra safety step, which benefits their housing, and yet they have fewer fire deaths.

legitster 3y ago
A lot of these fire deaths are not happening in modern up-to-code houses. They are happening in older "grandfathered" buildings or trailer homes.
- snowpid 3y ago
  I can assure you that most fires in European buildings don't happen in " modern up-to-code houses ".
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    There's a difference though. Old homes in the USA are often made from timber and don't have fire retardants like insulation, drywall (instead they have plaster and lath which is more flammable than drywall), etc. Plus the wood is very old (but very high quality!) which means it's very dry which means it goes up quickly. And with no insulation it spreads really quickly. Plus a lot of older homes haven't been brought up to date with new hardwired fire alarms, modern electric, etc.
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      Another quirk of American home building history is "balloon framing" that used long, continuous studs for the exterior walls that could rapidly channel fires between walls. The modern method is called "stick framing" where floors are essentially stacked up which creates fire breaks. So not all wood construction methods are equal where fire safety is concerned. Modern homes will certainly burn, but you should have a reasonable amount of time to escape at least.
delfinom 3y ago
> the USA (and Canada) goes to the effort to build two stairways in apartment buildings, which makes them harder to build, and compromises the design in making them subjectively worse to live in. Did a developer tell you that? Adding multiple stairways in a building is not difficult unless we are talking some sort of converted slum building.
- Tiktaalik 3y ago
  yes developers increasingly are advocating against these buildings. I'm sure it's not technically terribly difficult to add a staircase, but it's added time and expense and restricts architects in what they can do. https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-floor-plan-twitter-housing-apartments.html https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-floor-plan-twi...
rich_sasha 3y ago
I might be wrong but in most of Europe timber is basically unused as a building material (except for UK). And it seems to be used extensively in the US. Concrete and bricks don't burn anywhere near as much as wood.
- nemo44x 3y ago
  Scandinavia uses timber frequently. People use what they have and a lot of Europe doesn't have ample timber supplies. North America does so it's used and it's a fine material with a lot of upsides. Modern timber framed homes are quite fire safe and have a few ways to slow the spread of fire down so it doesn't rage. But old ones are generally not for a variety of reasons.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    key word here is "modern"
- laurencerowe 3y ago
  While you see some very old timber buildings in the UK from the 1500s and 1600s, we mostly switched to brick centuries ago since we’d cut down most of our trees. Lots of new timber buildings in the Nordics as they have plenty of trees.
  - rich_sasha 3y ago
    Nordics I didn't know about. But I believe most of the new housing developments are mostly wood. Brick is external only and possibly not even structural, the heavy lifting is all timber. But I certainly no expert so could be wrong.
    - laurencerowe 3y ago
      It seems to vary by region. > In Scotland timber frame homes already account for around 75% of all new housing, compared to 23% in England. https://www.pbctoday.co.uk/news/mmc-news/timber-frame-homes-uk/107522/ https://www.pbctoday.co.uk/news/mmc-news/timber-frame-homes-... Certainly the vast majority of newer homes I saw in England had brick / breeze block los bearing walls.
CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
Europe is a big place, there are definitely countries that mandate more than one emergency exit in (big) apartment buildings.

legitster 3y ago

A lot of these fire deaths are not happening in modern up-to-code houses. They are happening in older "grandfathered" buildings or trailer homes.

snowpid 3y ago
I can assure you that most fires in European buildings don't happen in " modern up-to-code houses ".
- nemo44x 3y ago
  There's a difference though. Old homes in the USA are often made from timber and don't have fire retardants like insulation, drywall (instead they have plaster and lath which is more flammable than drywall), etc. Plus the wood is very old (but very high quality!) which means it's very dry which means it goes up quickly. And with no insulation it spreads really quickly. Plus a lot of older homes haven't been brought up to date with new hardwired fire alarms, modern electric, etc.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    Another quirk of American home building history is "balloon framing" that used long, continuous studs for the exterior walls that could rapidly channel fires between walls. The modern method is called "stick framing" where floors are essentially stacked up which creates fire breaks. So not all wood construction methods are equal where fire safety is concerned. Modern homes will certainly burn, but you should have a reasonable amount of time to escape at least.

delfinom 3y ago

> the USA (and Canada) goes to the effort to build two stairways in apartment buildings, which makes them harder to build, and compromises the design in making them subjectively worse to live in. Did a developer tell you that? Adding multiple stairways in a building is not difficult unless we are talking some sort of converted slum building.

Tiktaalik 3y ago
yes developers increasingly are advocating against these buildings. I'm sure it's not technically terribly difficult to add a staircase, but it's added time and expense and restricts architects in what they can do. https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-floor-plan-twitter-housing-apartments.html https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-floor-plan-twi...

rich_sasha 3y ago

I might be wrong but in most of Europe timber is basically unused as a building material (except for UK). And it seems to be used extensively in the US. Concrete and bricks don't burn anywhere near as much as wood.

nemo44x 3y ago
Scandinavia uses timber frequently. People use what they have and a lot of Europe doesn't have ample timber supplies. North America does so it's used and it's a fine material with a lot of upsides. Modern timber framed homes are quite fire safe and have a few ways to slow the spread of fire down so it doesn't rage. But old ones are generally not for a variety of reasons.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  key word here is "modern"
laurencerowe 3y ago
While you see some very old timber buildings in the UK from the 1500s and 1600s, we mostly switched to brick centuries ago since we’d cut down most of our trees. Lots of new timber buildings in the Nordics as they have plenty of trees.
- rich_sasha 3y ago
  Nordics I didn't know about. But I believe most of the new housing developments are mostly wood. Brick is external only and possibly not even structural, the heavy lifting is all timber. But I certainly no expert so could be wrong.
  - laurencerowe 3y ago
    It seems to vary by region. > In Scotland timber frame homes already account for around 75% of all new housing, compared to 23% in England. https://www.pbctoday.co.uk/news/mmc-news/timber-frame-homes-uk/107522/ https://www.pbctoday.co.uk/news/mmc-news/timber-frame-homes-... Certainly the vast majority of newer homes I saw in England had brick / breeze block los bearing walls.

CorrectHorseBat 3y ago

Europe is a big place, there are definitely countries that mandate more than one emergency exit in (big) apartment buildings.