4 ms·

Open Source, as a proper noun, is generally considered associated with the OSD from OSI. We are trying to clarify that what we’re representing is not that defin

by zeeg 3y ago

Open Source, as a proper noun, is generally considered associated with the OSD from OSI. We are trying to clarify that what we’re representing is not that definition, but are representing what we feel is the spirit of open source software.

cxr 3y ago
I fear this is an instance of that old Upton Sinclair/H. L. Mencken quip—never be so foolish as to waste your breath believing that you can get a man to understand something which his salary requires him not to understand. Engage with the argument you are being confronted with. There is no difference between "Open Source" and "open-source". The former is generally associated with the OSD, and the latter is generally associated with people who insist on hyphenating* things—but are referring to the same thing; there is no "open-source" definition that is more relaxed than the "Open Source" definition. You are lying if you want to pretend that there is a widely recognized difference. There isn't. The problem never was that you're using the Business Software License. The problem is that you are _lying_. So stop lying. It's that easy. * EDIT: And removing the hyphen[1] doesn't fix anything. You have been through no fewer than four different variations of the title at this point[2][3][4]. The hyphen is not the problem. The problem is that you are lying. Try just not doing that. 1. <https://archive.is/XJz9r https://archive.is/XJz9r> 2. <https://archive.is/aSH9K https://archive.is/aSH9K> 3. Unarchived version that used lowercase "open-source" with a hyphen, cf <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36974314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36974314> 4. <https://archive.is/XJz9r https://archive.is/XJz9r>
- zeeg 3y ago
  You can literally make the same argument back to yourself, given _I_ and many others agree with the statement I made. Your opinion is fact but mine is opinion? We’re not going to agree - that’s fine — but I’m not a liar. I’m simply stating our intent. We will keep pushing sustainable open source forward, and hope others will help.
  - cxr 3y ago
    > Your opinion is fact but mine is opinion? No. Opinions are opinions, and facts are facts. Mixing them up is a type error. It is not an "opinion" that if someone were claiming that there is widespread agreement of a distinction between "Open Source" and "open-source" (or "open source") then that is untrue—because that's how facts work: they are either true or they are untrue. It's my opinion, on the other hand, that you guys are willfully dishonest and just kind of scummy, and so it is also my opinion that neither I nor any company I work at now or in the future should ever do business with you.
    - ezekg 3y ago
      There should be a distinction between FOSS and OSS. Nobody is trying to infringe on your FOSS rights. But some may argue the term OSS has changed to not strictly mean FOSS. The term "open source" at face value only implies "source available" until you read the license. Ask 1,000 developers and I'd bet real money the majority would say projects under BSL and other non-"OSI approved" licenses are "open source." Not FOSS, but OSS.
      - zeeg 3y ago
        In my experience most people think of open source as free plus source available. The average user doesn’t care much beyond that, which is supported by people’s willingness to add just about any dep to their software without validating licenses. No one will ever agree on terminology, but for me personally BSL is in the same category as GPL in that it achieves a bunch of the core principles, has less consequence, but also only works for certain types of software (eg sentry not libcurl).
        cxr 3y ago
        > for me personally BSL is in the same category as GPL Cool. So use the GPL, then. Previously: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36973417 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36973417> > No one will ever agree on terminology K. And "no one" will ever agree that evolution by natural selection is responsible for the origin of species. Dang. What a pickle.
- ewan-mclean 3y ago
  So why did the OSI write this?: > While there is agreement on the broad term "open source" as meaning approximately what is captured in the Open Source Definition the term has, ironically, now become so popular that it has lost some of its precision. https://web.archive.org/web/20060411080543/http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/faq.php https://web.archive.org/web/20060411080543/http://www.openso... Why did the OSI apply for a trademark on the term Open-Source? Why does the OSI continue pay the trademark registration fee to renew the unambiguous term "OSI Approved License" and why don't you adopt that term? Perhaps because both you and the OSI know that when you focus on the term "OSI Approved Licenses", it's just another word for "free software", and most people that are interested in "open-source" are interested because it's the opposite of "closed-source", not interested because they want to associate with the FSFs anti-developer property ideology.
  - cxr 3y ago
    > So why did the OSI write[... ¶] While there is agreement on the broad term "open source" as meaning approximately what is captured in the Open Source Definition the term has, ironically, now become so popular that it has lost some of its precision. That passage says two things: 1. "open source" means what OSI says it means 2. there are people like OP who exist OP does exist. That's a self-evident and indisputable fact. Were you expecting me to argue otherwise? Acknowledging that it's true, however, is completely different from saying that the definition they're using is widely agreed upon or that there is a difference between "Open Source" and "open source" that is wide accepted. (The first sentence in that passage actually says the opposite...)

by zeeg 3y ago

cxr 3y ago

I fear this is an instance of that old Upton Sinclair/H. L. Mencken quip—never be so foolish as to waste your breath believing that you can get a man to understand something which his salary requires him not to understand. Engage with the argument you are being confronted with. There is no difference between "Open Source" and "open-source". The former is generally associated with the OSD, and the latter is generally associated with people who insist on hyphenating* things—but are referring to the same thing; there is no "open-source" definition that is more relaxed than the "Open Source" definition. You are lying if you want to pretend that there is a widely recognized difference. There isn't. The problem never was that you're using the Business Software License. The problem is that you are _lying_. So stop lying. It's that easy. * EDIT: And removing the hyphen[1] doesn't fix anything. You have been through no fewer than four different variations of the title at this point[2][3][4]. The hyphen is not the problem. The problem is that you are lying. Try just not doing that. 1. <https://archive.is/XJz9r https://archive.is/XJz9r> 2. <https://archive.is/aSH9K https://archive.is/aSH9K> 3. Unarchived version that used lowercase "open-source" with a hyphen, cf <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36974314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36974314> 4. <https://archive.is/XJz9r https://archive.is/XJz9r>

zeeg 3y ago
You can literally make the same argument back to yourself, given _I_ and many others agree with the statement I made. Your opinion is fact but mine is opinion? We’re not going to agree - that’s fine — but I’m not a liar. I’m simply stating our intent. We will keep pushing sustainable open source forward, and hope others will help.
- cxr 3y ago
  > Your opinion is fact but mine is opinion? No. Opinions are opinions, and facts are facts. Mixing them up is a type error. It is not an "opinion" that if someone were claiming that there is widespread agreement of a distinction between "Open Source" and "open-source" (or "open source") then that is untrue—because that's how facts work: they are either true or they are untrue. It's my opinion, on the other hand, that you guys are willfully dishonest and just kind of scummy, and so it is also my opinion that neither I nor any company I work at now or in the future should ever do business with you.
  - ezekg 3y ago
    There should be a distinction between FOSS and OSS. Nobody is trying to infringe on your FOSS rights. But some may argue the term OSS has changed to not strictly mean FOSS. The term "open source" at face value only implies "source available" until you read the license. Ask 1,000 developers and I'd bet real money the majority would say projects under BSL and other non-"OSI approved" licenses are "open source." Not FOSS, but OSS.
    - zeeg 3y ago
      In my experience most people think of open source as free plus source available. The average user doesn’t care much beyond that, which is supported by people’s willingness to add just about any dep to their software without validating licenses. No one will ever agree on terminology, but for me personally BSL is in the same category as GPL in that it achieves a bunch of the core principles, has less consequence, but also only works for certain types of software (eg sentry not libcurl).
      - cxr 3y ago
        > for me personally BSL is in the same category as GPL Cool. So use the GPL, then. Previously: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36973417 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36973417> > No one will ever agree on terminology K. And "no one" will ever agree that evolution by natural selection is responsible for the origin of species. Dang. What a pickle.
ewan-mclean 3y ago
So why did the OSI write this?: > While there is agreement on the broad term "open source" as meaning approximately what is captured in the Open Source Definition the term has, ironically, now become so popular that it has lost some of its precision. https://web.archive.org/web/20060411080543/http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/faq.php https://web.archive.org/web/20060411080543/http://www.openso... Why did the OSI apply for a trademark on the term Open-Source? Why does the OSI continue pay the trademark registration fee to renew the unambiguous term "OSI Approved License" and why don't you adopt that term? Perhaps because both you and the OSI know that when you focus on the term "OSI Approved Licenses", it's just another word for "free software", and most people that are interested in "open-source" are interested because it's the opposite of "closed-source", not interested because they want to associate with the FSFs anti-developer property ideology.
- cxr 3y ago
  > So why did the OSI write[... ¶] While there is agreement on the broad term "open source" as meaning approximately what is captured in the Open Source Definition the term has, ironically, now become so popular that it has lost some of its precision. That passage says two things: 1. "open source" means what OSI says it means 2. there are people like OP who exist OP does exist. That's a self-evident and indisputable fact. Were you expecting me to argue otherwise? Acknowledging that it's true, however, is completely different from saying that the definition they're using is widely agreed upon or that there is a difference between "Open Source" and "open source" that is wide accepted. (The first sentence in that passage actually says the opposite...)