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If such a scenario were recognized, and we end up with something like UBI, how does one 'get ahead?' It seems some people are always wanting and willing to get

If such a scenario were recognized, and we end up with something like UBI, how does one 'get ahead?' It seems some people are always wanting and willing to get ahead, either through multiple jobs, long hours, or study. Is that dream now crushed into just do nothing and exist like everyone else? The robot owners aren't going to just hand out money, so would have to be taxed at some insane rate, I think. Being able to survive without 'working' sounds like a dream, but I get hung up on the technicalities of it all.

pixl97 3y ago
Whuffie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_King...
- javajosh 3y ago
  And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riders_of_the_Purple_Wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riders_of_the_Purple_Wage
UncleOxidant 3y ago
Sure, some people want to get ahead just for the feeling that they're doing better than most people, but a lot of people try to get ahead out of fear of not having enough. In a system where everyone has enough wouldn't that fear be at least greatly diminished?
- zaphar 3y ago
  I think there is a pretty strong case that "having enough" is very much a moving target and now matter how much many people have it's not "enough". I see a lot of evidence that it's impossible to have a system where everyone has enough and I haven't seen a lot of evidence that it is possible to build such a system.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Why does getting ahead have to mean money? In a Star Trek utopia where money is meaningless, everybody can become one of the best in the world in some small niche.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Star Trek utopia always smelled unworkable... It really leaves way too many open questions of how does that economy really work. Most media is about the absolute elite of that society. Or their relatives. It never truly answered where the non replicable resources come from.
pengaru 3y ago
It's not like UBI prohibits working hard. All it does is give everyone access to enough resources for basic survival, not Ferraris, which will still exist and continue to motivate some to be Vikings.
notaustinpowers 3y ago
I think the idea of what it means to "get ahead" would change. For example, with UBI I'd still work part time at a coffeeshop to save up money to turn my long-time hobby into a small business. That's a way to "get ahead" in a way that personally fulfills me. I don't need to become the next 30 under 30, or show up on some list for my success. Just the personal satisfaction of being able to say "I did this, and I'm proud of it. I hope you can enjoy it too". Of course, those who do want to show up on that 30 under 30 list can make different choices to get ahead in the way they interpret that meaning. UBI brings more options for people to dedicate to new ideas, new inventions, new ways of thinking. It doesn't restrict the choices of any citizen, it opens up more choices. Getting ahead still exists, and those who want it can go for it, that option wouldn't be taken away from them.
johnnyworker 3y ago
> how does one 'get ahead?' By learning things? By knowing and liking many things? By knowing and liking many people? By being very good at a unique permutation of skills, and using them to improve your life and that of your friends, having great adventures and whatnot? > The robot owners aren't going to just hand out money, so would have to be taxed at some insane rate, I think. Which would not be a problem, since all other super rich people would be taxed at the same "insane" rate, leaving the "getting ahead" relative to your peers completely untouched -- if that was really the issue, if people really couldn't think of ways to stand out amongst others other than the amount of money they "make" (it's just shifted around after all). The problem is exploitation I'd say, and even that is not an end in and of itself, it's just a necessary nuisance that is optimized away wherever possible, leaving pure ownership of pure [0] means of production in very, very few hands. The rest gets nothing, and since humans cannot persist on that, cease to exist shortly after. Compared the trajectory we're on -- the scenario we're in -- the technicalities of how to make the world somewhat human and livable instead of just an insane runaway train seem rather minor to me. [0] As in, basically no workers, no more than you can personally oversee or even be yourself. I know that will never be "fully achieved" but I think that's splitting hairs. It's the trend, we keep accelerating and making previously thought impossible tools of dystopia real, who cares if there will ever be just one dude in a toga living forever commanding a blob of energy that can do and create anything, except make him sane.
gswdh 3y ago
[dead]
TacticalCoder 3y ago
> Being able to survive without 'working' sounds like a dream, but I get hung up on the technicalities of it all. One technicality that blocks me is something I encountered not that long ago... How do you compensate those that will come dig in human manure, sometimes for hours, to fix a house's clogged pipe? I had to do that: toilets wouldn't flush anymore, shits floating and all. I didn't know where the pipes were exactly and one them, the last one before the sewers, was clogged. So basically 40 meters of shit blocked inside the pipe, which then started overflowing on the property, for weeks (or months), unnoticed. The plumber couldn't come immediately (it was a sunday late in the afternoon) but would be there next morning. So for five hours I dig into human manure to find the damn pipe (which I more or less knew where it was located). It saved the plumber five hours of digging into, literally, shit and piss (saved me five hours of billing and five hours of waiting for things to be fixed too). In that "without working" society, who digs into human manure? Who comes to pick up the trash? Who comes to fix a broken AC? Who wants to spend 12 years studying medicine to save the lives of those who aren't working? That's what I don't get.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  "Who wants to spend 12 years studying medicine to save the lives of those who aren't working?" I think the argument is that there is inherent value in helping fellow man/woman, self actualization, etc - and that is the reward in itself. I do not agree with this.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    I think the UBI argument is that the cost of those shit-digging jobs will have to significantly rise to the actual price of finding someone willing to do them. If I have to do work or starve, maybe I'm willing to dig shit for $15/hr. If nobody has to do work to survive, suddenly you have to shell out $300/hr to motivate someone to do it.
    - one_level_deep 3y ago
      [dead]

pixl97 3y ago

Whuffie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_King...

javajosh 3y ago
And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riders_of_the_Purple_Wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riders_of_the_Purple_Wage

UncleOxidant 3y ago

Sure, some people want to get ahead just for the feeling that they're doing better than most people, but a lot of people try to get ahead out of fear of not having enough. In a system where everyone has enough wouldn't that fear be at least greatly diminished?

zaphar 3y ago
I think there is a pretty strong case that "having enough" is very much a moving target and now matter how much many people have it's not "enough". I see a lot of evidence that it's impossible to have a system where everyone has enough and I haven't seen a lot of evidence that it is possible to build such a system.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Why does getting ahead have to mean money? In a Star Trek utopia where money is meaningless, everybody can become one of the best in the world in some small niche.

Ekaros 3y ago
Star Trek utopia always smelled unworkable... It really leaves way too many open questions of how does that economy really work. Most media is about the absolute elite of that society. Or their relatives. It never truly answered where the non replicable resources come from.

pengaru 3y ago

It's not like UBI prohibits working hard. All it does is give everyone access to enough resources for basic survival, not Ferraris, which will still exist and continue to motivate some to be Vikings.

notaustinpowers 3y ago

I think the idea of what it means to "get ahead" would change. For example, with UBI I'd still work part time at a coffeeshop to save up money to turn my long-time hobby into a small business. That's a way to "get ahead" in a way that personally fulfills me. I don't need to become the next 30 under 30, or show up on some list for my success. Just the personal satisfaction of being able to say "I did this, and I'm proud of it. I hope you can enjoy it too". Of course, those who do want to show up on that 30 under 30 list can make different choices to get ahead in the way they interpret that meaning. UBI brings more options for people to dedicate to new ideas, new inventions, new ways of thinking. It doesn't restrict the choices of any citizen, it opens up more choices. Getting ahead still exists, and those who want it can go for it, that option wouldn't be taken away from them.

johnnyworker 3y ago

> how does one 'get ahead?' By learning things? By knowing and liking many things? By knowing and liking many people? By being very good at a unique permutation of skills, and using them to improve your life and that of your friends, having great adventures and whatnot? > The robot owners aren't going to just hand out money, so would have to be taxed at some insane rate, I think. Which would not be a problem, since all other super rich people would be taxed at the same "insane" rate, leaving the "getting ahead" relative to your peers completely untouched -- if that was really the issue, if people really couldn't think of ways to stand out amongst others other than the amount of money they "make" (it's just shifted around after all). The problem is exploitation I'd say, and even that is not an end in and of itself, it's just a necessary nuisance that is optimized away wherever possible, leaving pure ownership of pure [0] means of production in very, very few hands. The rest gets nothing, and since humans cannot persist on that, cease to exist shortly after. Compared the trajectory we're on -- the scenario we're in -- the technicalities of how to make the world somewhat human and livable instead of just an insane runaway train seem rather minor to me. [0] As in, basically no workers, no more than you can personally oversee or even be yourself. I know that will never be "fully achieved" but I think that's splitting hairs. It's the trend, we keep accelerating and making previously thought impossible tools of dystopia real, who cares if there will ever be just one dude in a toga living forever commanding a blob of energy that can do and create anything, except make him sane.

gswdh 3y ago

[dead]

TacticalCoder 3y ago

> Being able to survive without 'working' sounds like a dream, but I get hung up on the technicalities of it all. One technicality that blocks me is something I encountered not that long ago... How do you compensate those that will come dig in human manure, sometimes for hours, to fix a house's clogged pipe? I had to do that: toilets wouldn't flush anymore, shits floating and all. I didn't know where the pipes were exactly and one them, the last one before the sewers, was clogged. So basically 40 meters of shit blocked inside the pipe, which then started overflowing on the property, for weeks (or months), unnoticed. The plumber couldn't come immediately (it was a sunday late in the afternoon) but would be there next morning. So for five hours I dig into human manure to find the damn pipe (which I more or less knew where it was located). It saved the plumber five hours of digging into, literally, shit and piss (saved me five hours of billing and five hours of waiting for things to be fixed too). In that "without working" society, who digs into human manure? Who comes to pick up the trash? Who comes to fix a broken AC? Who wants to spend 12 years studying medicine to save the lives of those who aren't working? That's what I don't get.

JimtheCoder 3y ago
"Who wants to spend 12 years studying medicine to save the lives of those who aren't working?" I think the argument is that there is inherent value in helping fellow man/woman, self actualization, etc - and that is the reward in itself. I do not agree with this.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  I think the UBI argument is that the cost of those shit-digging jobs will have to significantly rise to the actual price of finding someone willing to do them. If I have to do work or starve, maybe I'm willing to dig shit for $15/hr. If nobody has to do work to survive, suddenly you have to shell out $300/hr to motivate someone to do it.
  - one_level_deep 3y ago
    [dead]