3 ms·

Does anyone have experience in doing a massive change to their gut and seeing long term results? Specifically, is it possible to "cure" autism through your gut

by proee 3y ago

Does anyone have experience in doing a massive change to their gut and seeing long term results? Specifically, is it possible to "cure" autism through your gut microbiome?

kypro 3y ago
Is it even possible to change your gut microbiome significantly without doing something extreme like a fecal transplant? Also, I'm guessing that after someone's brain has developed it's going to become much harder to change. That said, I'd be asking the alternative question, can we use this to give people high-functioning autism?
- hammock 3y ago
  What’s extreme about a fecal transplant, aside from the ick factor? It doesn’t strike me as that different from taking a probiotic or a suppository
  - kypro 3y ago
    Doesn't it require a surgical procedure? I meant it's extreme in contrast to something more mundane like diet augmentation.
    - jakear 3y ago
      Not at all. You just swallow fecal matter. Usually in a pill.
    - jamiek88 3y ago
      No. You eat a shit pellet. That’s it. It’s mainly used with c diff people who have had their gut micro biome wiped out by treatment.
    - Ygg2 3y ago
      Not really. Usually it's inserted in your colon. It's no more invasive than colonoscopy.
      - nomel 3y ago
        Correct. A colonoscopy is not a surgical procedure: https://mackinawsurgerycenter.com/colon-rectal/colorectal-cancer-screening-endoscopy-vs-colonoscopy/ https://mackinawsurgerycenter.com/colon-rectal/colorectal-ca... > Technically, a colonoscopy is a type of endoscopy. An endoscopy is a nonsurgical procedure
        Ygg2 3y ago
        There is a pill form, but I'm wondering how will those bacteria survive the acid? Also it can be done via nasal/oral tube to the guts.
        nomel 3y ago
        > but I'm wondering how will those bacteria survive the acid? They don't release in the stomach [1]: > The oral capsule tested in this study was specifically designed to open and release its content at the end of human small intestine only. There are many pills that release at different points, and speeds, through the digestion. This is why some pills are labelled "do not cut". See enteric coating [2]. [1] At least the early ones didn't. I doubt there would be a point in putting fecal matter in the stomach. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918368/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918368/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_coating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_coating
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - nomel 3y ago
      https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/fecal-transplant#:~:text=Fecal%20transplantation%20is%20usually%20performed,is%20deposited%20into%20the%20colon https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-t... > Fecal transplantation is usually performed by colonoscopy. A gastroenterologist guides the colonoscope through the entire length of the colon, and, as it is withdrawn, the solution containing donor feces is deposited into the colon. > Less commonly, the transplant is delivered through a tube inserted through the nose that reaches into the duodenum, the area where the stomach connects with the small intestine. This method does not require bowel prep, but is associated with a higher risk of side effects such as aspiration pneumonia. > Sometimes, FMT can be delivered by a capsule that you swallow or through an enema. tldr: tube inserted somewhere to deposit, pill, or enema.
  - localplume 3y ago
    [dead]
  - azinman2 3y ago
    What's extreme is that the FDA has generally made the practice illegal, according to my GI. Some people suffered fatal bacterial infections so they pulled back on the topic. There might be still some experiments but I guess right now its still considered risky.
- jt2190 3y ago
  My layman’s understanding is that your immune system has an “strong opinion” about what bacteria it will tolerate, so simply introducing new bacteria generally does not make a permanent change to your gut biome. Even fecal transplant doesn’t really work for transforming the gut biome, as I understand it. (It can help reestablish bacteria that were lost due to medication or disease though.)
ramraj07 3y ago
In autism case that actually happened first. Parents began to restrict gluten out of the diets for kids with ASD and were adamant that this helped them a lot. The research community was highly skeptical and even derisive of this until they started finding real gut brain connection and proof in trials and mice studies. Hopefully parents of children who have such conditions can chime in and corroborate this history.
- mtsr 3y ago
  Have you got any citations for this? I’d be interested to learn about any more definitive results in this area.
- jadbox 3y ago
  From the studies I've seen, gluten doesn't really provide much sustenance to the microbiome and it tends to leak through the gut.
- alphazard 3y ago
  Gliadin (Gluten) increases intestinal permeability through Zonulin[0]. This is true in all humans, independent of allergies or auto-immunity. It's unlikely that gluten itself has anything to do with ASD, it just exacerbates an existing predisposition to intestinal permeability. And so restricting Gluten is a reasonable intervention. The underlying cause is almost certainly dysbiosis, the microbiome continually modulating permeability in a way that is damaging to the host. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonulin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonulin
Philadelphia 3y ago
It’s discussed in the paper under the heading “ASD microbiomes mirror behavior improvement after fecal matter transplant” “To test this, we re-analyzed data from a 2-year, open-label fecal matter transplant (FMT) study with 18 children with ASD52. In this study, the children were subjected to a 2-week antibiotic treatment and a bowel cleanse, followed by 2 d of high-dose FMT treatment and 8 weeks of daily maintenance FMT doses. Based on one of the most common evaluation scales for ASD, the Childhood Autism Rating Scale (CARS), significant improvements were achieved after the 10-week course of treatment. Two months later, the initial gains were largely maintained, and a 2-year follow-up showed signs of further improvement in most of the patients. The results are consistent with a potential role of the microbiome in improving autism symptoms, but how the underlying changes in microbiome composition related to those seen in other studies remains unknown.”
itronitron 3y ago
Some people have commented on their positive experiences with the probiotic Bacillis subtilis >> related thread from two years ago... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26038638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26038638 >> also searching on hn.algolia yields this... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1690998813&dateRange=all&dateStart=1625097600&page=1&prefix=false&query=subtilis&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1690998813&dateRange=all&dat...
mwbajor 3y ago
Theres alot of anecdotal evidence from parents that seems to prove some of this. There are two problems: 1) Most people with autism don't have it e.g. there is no good definition. 2) Not only are diet studies hard to do because they involve self reporting, but there is no money in telling a person that they should eat right unless its part of a diet fad.

by proee 3y ago

Does anyone have experience in doing a massive change to their gut and seeing long term results? Specifically, is it possible to "cure" autism through your gut microbiome?

kypro 3y ago

Is it even possible to change your gut microbiome significantly without doing something extreme like a fecal transplant? Also, I'm guessing that after someone's brain has developed it's going to become much harder to change. That said, I'd be asking the alternative question, can we use this to give people high-functioning autism?

hammock 3y ago
What’s extreme about a fecal transplant, aside from the ick factor? It doesn’t strike me as that different from taking a probiotic or a suppository
- kypro 3y ago
  Doesn't it require a surgical procedure? I meant it's extreme in contrast to something more mundane like diet augmentation.
  - jakear 3y ago
    Not at all. You just swallow fecal matter. Usually in a pill.
  - jamiek88 3y ago
    No. You eat a shit pellet. That’s it. It’s mainly used with c diff people who have had their gut micro biome wiped out by treatment.
  - Ygg2 3y ago
    Not really. Usually it's inserted in your colon. It's no more invasive than colonoscopy.
    - nomel 3y ago
      Correct. A colonoscopy is not a surgical procedure: https://mackinawsurgerycenter.com/colon-rectal/colorectal-cancer-screening-endoscopy-vs-colonoscopy/ https://mackinawsurgerycenter.com/colon-rectal/colorectal-ca... > Technically, a colonoscopy is a type of endoscopy. An endoscopy is a nonsurgical procedure
      - Ygg2 3y ago
        There is a pill form, but I'm wondering how will those bacteria survive the acid? Also it can be done via nasal/oral tube to the guts.
        nomel 3y ago
        > but I'm wondering how will those bacteria survive the acid? They don't release in the stomach [1]: > The oral capsule tested in this study was specifically designed to open and release its content at the end of human small intestine only. There are many pills that release at different points, and speeds, through the digestion. This is why some pills are labelled "do not cut". See enteric coating [2]. [1] At least the early ones didn't. I doubt there would be a point in putting fecal matter in the stomach. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918368/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918368/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_coating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_coating
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - nomel 3y ago
    https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/fecal-transplant#:~:text=Fecal%20transplantation%20is%20usually%20performed,is%20deposited%20into%20the%20colon https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-t... > Fecal transplantation is usually performed by colonoscopy. A gastroenterologist guides the colonoscope through the entire length of the colon, and, as it is withdrawn, the solution containing donor feces is deposited into the colon. > Less commonly, the transplant is delivered through a tube inserted through the nose that reaches into the duodenum, the area where the stomach connects with the small intestine. This method does not require bowel prep, but is associated with a higher risk of side effects such as aspiration pneumonia. > Sometimes, FMT can be delivered by a capsule that you swallow or through an enema. tldr: tube inserted somewhere to deposit, pill, or enema.
- localplume 3y ago
  [dead]
- azinman2 3y ago
  What's extreme is that the FDA has generally made the practice illegal, according to my GI. Some people suffered fatal bacterial infections so they pulled back on the topic. There might be still some experiments but I guess right now its still considered risky.
jt2190 3y ago
My layman’s understanding is that your immune system has an “strong opinion” about what bacteria it will tolerate, so simply introducing new bacteria generally does not make a permanent change to your gut biome. Even fecal transplant doesn’t really work for transforming the gut biome, as I understand it. (It can help reestablish bacteria that were lost due to medication or disease though.)

ramraj07 3y ago

In autism case that actually happened first. Parents began to restrict gluten out of the diets for kids with ASD and were adamant that this helped them a lot. The research community was highly skeptical and even derisive of this until they started finding real gut brain connection and proof in trials and mice studies. Hopefully parents of children who have such conditions can chime in and corroborate this history.

mtsr 3y ago
Have you got any citations for this? I’d be interested to learn about any more definitive results in this area.
jadbox 3y ago
From the studies I've seen, gluten doesn't really provide much sustenance to the microbiome and it tends to leak through the gut.
alphazard 3y ago
Gliadin (Gluten) increases intestinal permeability through Zonulin[0]. This is true in all humans, independent of allergies or auto-immunity. It's unlikely that gluten itself has anything to do with ASD, it just exacerbates an existing predisposition to intestinal permeability. And so restricting Gluten is a reasonable intervention. The underlying cause is almost certainly dysbiosis, the microbiome continually modulating permeability in a way that is damaging to the host. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonulin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonulin

Philadelphia 3y ago

It’s discussed in the paper under the heading “ASD microbiomes mirror behavior improvement after fecal matter transplant” “To test this, we re-analyzed data from a 2-year, open-label fecal matter transplant (FMT) study with 18 children with ASD52. In this study, the children were subjected to a 2-week antibiotic treatment and a bowel cleanse, followed by 2 d of high-dose FMT treatment and 8 weeks of daily maintenance FMT doses. Based on one of the most common evaluation scales for ASD, the Childhood Autism Rating Scale (CARS), significant improvements were achieved after the 10-week course of treatment. Two months later, the initial gains were largely maintained, and a 2-year follow-up showed signs of further improvement in most of the patients. The results are consistent with a potential role of the microbiome in improving autism symptoms, but how the underlying changes in microbiome composition related to those seen in other studies remains unknown.”

itronitron 3y ago

Some people have commented on their positive experiences with the probiotic Bacillis subtilis >> related thread from two years ago... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26038638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26038638 >> also searching on hn.algolia yields this... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1690998813&dateRange=all&dateStart=1625097600&page=1&prefix=false&query=subtilis&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1690998813&dateRange=all&dat...

mwbajor 3y ago

Theres alot of anecdotal evidence from parents that seems to prove some of this. There are two problems: 1) Most people with autism don't have it e.g. there is no good definition. 2) Not only are diet studies hard to do because they involve self reporting, but there is no money in telling a person that they should eat right unless its part of a diet fad.