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HN is disproportionately bigoted. I'm a trans person and using this site can be really fraught at times. They aren't painting all of HN with a brush; but it's f

HN is disproportionately bigoted. I'm a trans person and using this site can be really fraught at times. They aren't painting all of HN with a brush; but it's fair to say that I wouldn't want HN discussing my projects either, because it'll tend towards right-wing hatred more often than not. That's just a large portion of the demographic of this website. I'm glad the Asahi team is taking a stance against bigotry instead of brushing it under the rug like so many "allies" do. You can get butt hurt when someone says a group you're a part of has issues; or you can self-reflect and understand where the criticism is coming from. That's up to you.

empyrrhicist 3y ago
I've seen some pretty bad sexism on articles about women in tech, but I don't recall that on any posts about Asahi. Transphobic commenters also (subjectively) seem like a small minority.
- ATsch 3y ago
  It doesn't matter if they're a minority if moderation just lets them use HN as a megaphone and post hundreds of comments before any sort of reaction. Or in terms of a tired metaphor: If you refuse to weed out your bad apples, you can't really complain when people stop taking your fruit shipments because they keep spoiling their bunches :)
loeg 3y ago
When you say disproportionate, what are you comparing against?
DiabloD3 3y ago
I would love for you to point out comments that that are bigoted against trans people. HN has always been a trans-friendly website and major members of HN over the years have been either trans or openly pro-trans. I've never seen it, which implies dang actually does his job.
- Timon3 3y ago
  I've seen it a number of times and tried to argue against it when possible. Many comment chains and posts about trans people have a couple of comments deriding them as mentally ill or denying their identity. They do go dead often, but that also doesn't happen immediately.
  - DiabloD3 3y ago
    It's never going to happen immediately... comments are hidden after x amount of flags, and only made actually dead after human review (ie, dang looks at the mod queue). Anything else would be a fast path to (ab)using flagging to silence individuals. I have showdead on, so I do see dead comments saying absolutely dumb shit from time to time. What I was asking for above was proof that, at this moment, there are comments that are as described and are not either dead or downvoted into oblivion. There will always be dumb people saying dumb shit, no website on earth that has user created content will ever be free of that. As long as dumb people exist on the Internet, dumb things that were uttered by dumb people will continue be handled by mods.
- _cenw 3y ago
  It happens pretty consistently if you mention you're trans for any reason (even if it is fully on-topic) or you are visibly trans as the writer of the post itself, you will either get voted down or an entire tangent on how trans people are mentally ill, unreliable, how you shouldn't use any projects with trans people in leadership roles will form as as a subthread... Any number of unprompted off-topic discussion involving your mental state or how trans people in general are all delusional or going into transphobic talking points (which, if you push back on them, you'll be accused of being intellectually bankrupt or something - in a thread not even about trans people). It's not "most of HN" in my experience, but more people could be calling these subthreads out, getting posts out of downvote hell and of course dang and friends could just cut that shit out, period.
  - DiabloD3 3y ago
    Except... I've never seen that happen. There is no downvote brigade on HN that targets trans people. Being part of a downvote brigade is against the rules, and dang will ban you for doing it. You are asking dang to do something that is already occurring. I have never seen any thread in showdead or not that specifically targets people for being trans. I am going to re-iterate my request: show me the evidence.
unethical_ban 3y ago
It's not brushing it under the rug if I don't see it. As in, any time I have seen a bigoted comment it is downvoted or flagged. The pushback is because what you're describing literally isn't observed, and no one is showing links or calling out accounts. Maybe you're right, but it isn't my experience so nothing is "up to me" except continuing to flag or argue against biased comments.
- theossuary 3y ago
  Look through my comment history, there's literally extreme transphobia 5 comments back. Go through my comments, there's on average transphobia on every page that I try to address, because it's never addressed by dang, et al. It's been present ever since I started using this site. As compared to literally every other technical community I'm apart of, HN devolves into transphobia much more often. Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there.
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    >Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there. I'm glad we agree. As for extreme transphobia: the one thread most immediately does have an ignorant person making stupid claims about a boy liking dolls leading to transition. But is that extreme on the spectrum? And is it not downvoted, indicating that more people disagreeed than agreed with them? It seems, at least, that said ignoramus actually believes what they are saying, rather than trolling. In which case I think it's good to leave their comment up to let people tear it down. Removing non-troll comments solely because we dont like them will only drive the user further into bitterness and self assuredness by not being challenged, while onlookers like me are less likely to know they exist or how wrong they are. FWIW, thanks for the explanation of related virtualization tooling.
    - howinteresting 3y ago
      This comment series (it's not just one comment, and your downplaying of it and not including eg that they called adults in trans children's lives "pedophiles" borders on the verge of dishonesty) is absolutely extreme on the spectrum of transphobia: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36804092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36804092 The author should have been banned for this, not just downvoted.
widowlark 3y ago
I am sorry you have had this experience. How can HN be better?
- _wf2l 3y ago
  Better moderation/moderators who actually take transphobia seriously
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> They aren't painting all of HN with a brush > In addition, we find that only a tiny fraction of HN comments (often less than 1%) actually engage with the substance of our articles, with the majority being off-topic, misinformative, repetitive, or otherwise of low quality, making the overall value of HN exposure overwhelmingly negative for our project. You sure? I feel like painting 99% of a group of people with a brush is equivalent to painting the group as a whole.
December_Stars 3y ago
Also a trans person and I felt obligated to log in for the first time in over a year seeing your comment. I've seen comments here that are a nicely packaged up version of 4chan (non lgbt boards), and I strongly suggest you leave here because I think the issue is inherently a lack of moderation and I don't anticipate that changing. I'll be banned for this comment most likely, probably because its "inflammatory" but blatant transphobia apparently isn't, but this is the first HN link I've seen since I quit this site a long time ago and I'm just perpetually disappointed by this website. Cutting out transphobic joints like this was one of the best things I've done for myself. And @ anyone else who is reading this - there's nothing more injustice loves than inaction. Take it from a trans person who quit because of the bigotry they saw - please believe me, it's a lack of moderation. Speak up for what's right. If you think you have nothing to do with it - by continuing to let it happen, you are silently condoning its existence.
- lostmsu 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hghuulge 3y ago
    [dead]
- slikrick 3y ago
  I completely agree. The transphobia on this site is plentiful and abhorrent. The moderators are less than worthless when it comes to it (heavily implying they are part of the issue) and the moderators HATE when you point out failures in their moderation. It should be expected given the rest of HN, but I'm putting it plainly for others as well, the site has a massive bigotry problem with its users, and a moderation issue with its moderators
heywoodlh 3y ago
I'm sorry this has been your experience. Thank you for sharing it, and know that it has prompted self-reflection for me. I hope future online encounters are positive, wherever you are. :)

empyrrhicist 3y ago

I've seen some pretty bad sexism on articles about women in tech, but I don't recall that on any posts about Asahi. Transphobic commenters also (subjectively) seem like a small minority.

ATsch 3y ago
It doesn't matter if they're a minority if moderation just lets them use HN as a megaphone and post hundreds of comments before any sort of reaction. Or in terms of a tired metaphor: If you refuse to weed out your bad apples, you can't really complain when people stop taking your fruit shipments because they keep spoiling their bunches :)

loeg 3y ago

When you say disproportionate, what are you comparing against?

DiabloD3 3y ago

I would love for you to point out comments that that are bigoted against trans people. HN has always been a trans-friendly website and major members of HN over the years have been either trans or openly pro-trans. I've never seen it, which implies dang actually does his job.

Timon3 3y ago
I've seen it a number of times and tried to argue against it when possible. Many comment chains and posts about trans people have a couple of comments deriding them as mentally ill or denying their identity. They do go dead often, but that also doesn't happen immediately.
- DiabloD3 3y ago
  It's never going to happen immediately... comments are hidden after x amount of flags, and only made actually dead after human review (ie, dang looks at the mod queue). Anything else would be a fast path to (ab)using flagging to silence individuals. I have showdead on, so I do see dead comments saying absolutely dumb shit from time to time. What I was asking for above was proof that, at this moment, there are comments that are as described and are not either dead or downvoted into oblivion. There will always be dumb people saying dumb shit, no website on earth that has user created content will ever be free of that. As long as dumb people exist on the Internet, dumb things that were uttered by dumb people will continue be handled by mods.
_cenw 3y ago
It happens pretty consistently if you mention you're trans for any reason (even if it is fully on-topic) or you are visibly trans as the writer of the post itself, you will either get voted down or an entire tangent on how trans people are mentally ill, unreliable, how you shouldn't use any projects with trans people in leadership roles will form as as a subthread... Any number of unprompted off-topic discussion involving your mental state or how trans people in general are all delusional or going into transphobic talking points (which, if you push back on them, you'll be accused of being intellectually bankrupt or something - in a thread not even about trans people). It's not "most of HN" in my experience, but more people could be calling these subthreads out, getting posts out of downvote hell and of course dang and friends could just cut that shit out, period.
- DiabloD3 3y ago
  Except... I've never seen that happen. There is no downvote brigade on HN that targets trans people. Being part of a downvote brigade is against the rules, and dang will ban you for doing it. You are asking dang to do something that is already occurring. I have never seen any thread in showdead or not that specifically targets people for being trans. I am going to re-iterate my request: show me the evidence.

unethical_ban 3y ago

It's not brushing it under the rug if I don't see it. As in, any time I have seen a bigoted comment it is downvoted or flagged. The pushback is because what you're describing literally isn't observed, and no one is showing links or calling out accounts. Maybe you're right, but it isn't my experience so nothing is "up to me" except continuing to flag or argue against biased comments.

theossuary 3y ago
Look through my comment history, there's literally extreme transphobia 5 comments back. Go through my comments, there's on average transphobia on every page that I try to address, because it's never addressed by dang, et al. It's been present ever since I started using this site. As compared to literally every other technical community I'm apart of, HN devolves into transphobia much more often. Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  >Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there. I'm glad we agree. As for extreme transphobia: the one thread most immediately does have an ignorant person making stupid claims about a boy liking dolls leading to transition. But is that extreme on the spectrum? And is it not downvoted, indicating that more people disagreeed than agreed with them? It seems, at least, that said ignoramus actually believes what they are saying, rather than trolling. In which case I think it's good to leave their comment up to let people tear it down. Removing non-troll comments solely because we dont like them will only drive the user further into bitterness and self assuredness by not being challenged, while onlookers like me are less likely to know they exist or how wrong they are. FWIW, thanks for the explanation of related virtualization tooling.
  - howinteresting 3y ago
    This comment series (it's not just one comment, and your downplaying of it and not including eg that they called adults in trans children's lives "pedophiles" borders on the verge of dishonesty) is absolutely extreme on the spectrum of transphobia: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36804092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36804092 The author should have been banned for this, not just downvoted.

widowlark 3y ago

I am sorry you have had this experience. How can HN be better?

_wf2l 3y ago
Better moderation/moderators who actually take transphobia seriously

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago

> They aren't painting all of HN with a brush > In addition, we find that only a tiny fraction of HN comments (often less than 1%) actually engage with the substance of our articles, with the majority being off-topic, misinformative, repetitive, or otherwise of low quality, making the overall value of HN exposure overwhelmingly negative for our project. You sure? I feel like painting 99% of a group of people with a brush is equivalent to painting the group as a whole.

December_Stars 3y ago

Also a trans person and I felt obligated to log in for the first time in over a year seeing your comment. I've seen comments here that are a nicely packaged up version of 4chan (non lgbt boards), and I strongly suggest you leave here because I think the issue is inherently a lack of moderation and I don't anticipate that changing. I'll be banned for this comment most likely, probably because its "inflammatory" but blatant transphobia apparently isn't, but this is the first HN link I've seen since I quit this site a long time ago and I'm just perpetually disappointed by this website. Cutting out transphobic joints like this was one of the best things I've done for myself. And @ anyone else who is reading this - there's nothing more injustice loves than inaction. Take it from a trans person who quit because of the bigotry they saw - please believe me, it's a lack of moderation. Speak up for what's right. If you think you have nothing to do with it - by continuing to let it happen, you are silently condoning its existence.

lostmsu 3y ago
[flagged]
- hghuulge 3y ago
  [dead]
slikrick 3y ago
I completely agree. The transphobia on this site is plentiful and abhorrent. The moderators are less than worthless when it comes to it (heavily implying they are part of the issue) and the moderators HATE when you point out failures in their moderation. It should be expected given the rest of HN, but I'm putting it plainly for others as well, the site has a massive bigotry problem with its users, and a moderation issue with its moderators

heywoodlh 3y ago

I'm sorry this has been your experience. Thank you for sharing it, and know that it has prompted self-reflection for me. I hope future online encounters are positive, wherever you are. :)