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> Most good developers can build apps faster without an ORM or a framework Can they though? Especially if there are several developers working on it. Or are yo

• BigJono 3y ago
  "Framework on top of a framework" I meant, not just one. Something like React or Django is absolutely a big speedup once you fully understand the abstractions they provide, but the ad hoc mishmash of 80 libraries and mountains of tooling (or actual 3rd party framework in lieu of those things) on top of them that you see at the typical web dev shop these days isn't. Most shops are just building and building and building with no end in sight, constantly looking for the next thing to chuck on the pile, and IME having taught plenty of grads in my career they learn basically nothing in these environments. This would actually be a benefit for younger developers that could bypass it except that once the problem gets bad enough it seeps through to training materials across the web and self-taught people cop it as collateral. If you try and google up some advice for how to get started with a web app these days you're going to get all sorts of opinions on what sort of "stack" you should start with to the point that people make it a part of their ideology, like you get some sort of fucking street cred for using ts-pattern or whatever this week's designated architectural microfad is.