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This was in the comment you’re replying to. It covers your reply > Devaluing shame instead of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed As

by graeme 3y ago

This was in the comment you’re replying to. It covers your reply > Devaluing shame instead of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed As the other comment said, you’re also discussing “being shamed” whereas the original comment is about “feeling shame”. Similar but far from identical.

rewmie 3y ago
> As the other comment said, you’re also discussing “being shamed” whereas the original comment is about “feeling shame”. Similar but far from identical. No, not really. OP clearly advocates for "the need of an authority figure" to force his personal views onto others he feels are lacking in the way of morals. OP's puerile take on "shame" is just a thinly veilled desire to oppress everyone and anyone around them that does not comply with his personal views.
- grncdr 3y ago
  The OP actually said something nearly opposite to that… > Without shame, many people unfortunately need an authority figure to step in and moderate their behaviour. This is an argument against relying on authority figures to replace the role of shame and implicit social contract. I honestly don’t know how they could have made that more clear than when they continued with this: > It will likely result in people reaching for a paternal “strongman” figure and a subsequent slide into (probably) fascism. Again, the argument is that _without_ shame and a shared social contract, the replacement by explicit state authority to moderate harmful behaviors drifts towards fascism.
  - goodpoint 3y ago
    > Again, the argument is that _without_ shame and a shared social contract, the replacement by explicit state authority to moderate harmful behaviors drifts towards fascism. The argument is plain wrong. Fascism and nazism were driven by fear and shame from day one. You can find transcriptions from early talks from the dictators and others.
    - grncdr 3y ago
      Sure, I’m not trying to make the argument of the OP, just clarify it because I do think it warrants consideration. Regarding the role of shame in the rise of fascism (and the NSDAP). I agree it played a role, but I would characterize that as an (all too successful) exploit of human psychology. My opinion is that “shame” as a basic human emotion does perform an important function in our social fabric, and trying to inoculate ourselves against it en masse is not without its downsides.
      - goodpoint 3y ago
        You opinion goes against modern science: psychology, pedagogy and sociology agree that positive feedback is much more effective than negative and it's healthier in the long run.

by graeme 3y ago

rewmie 3y ago

> As the other comment said, you’re also discussing “being shamed” whereas the original comment is about “feeling shame”. Similar but far from identical. No, not really. OP clearly advocates for "the need of an authority figure" to force his personal views onto others he feels are lacking in the way of morals. OP's puerile take on "shame" is just a thinly veilled desire to oppress everyone and anyone around them that does not comply with his personal views.

grncdr 3y ago
The OP actually said something nearly opposite to that… > Without shame, many people unfortunately need an authority figure to step in and moderate their behaviour. This is an argument against relying on authority figures to replace the role of shame and implicit social contract. I honestly don’t know how they could have made that more clear than when they continued with this: > It will likely result in people reaching for a paternal “strongman” figure and a subsequent slide into (probably) fascism. Again, the argument is that _without_ shame and a shared social contract, the replacement by explicit state authority to moderate harmful behaviors drifts towards fascism.
- goodpoint 3y ago
  > Again, the argument is that _without_ shame and a shared social contract, the replacement by explicit state authority to moderate harmful behaviors drifts towards fascism. The argument is plain wrong. Fascism and nazism were driven by fear and shame from day one. You can find transcriptions from early talks from the dictators and others.
  - grncdr 3y ago
    Sure, I’m not trying to make the argument of the OP, just clarify it because I do think it warrants consideration. Regarding the role of shame in the rise of fascism (and the NSDAP). I agree it played a role, but I would characterize that as an (all too successful) exploit of human psychology. My opinion is that “shame” as a basic human emotion does perform an important function in our social fabric, and trying to inoculate ourselves against it en masse is not without its downsides.
    - goodpoint 3y ago
      You opinion goes against modern science: psychology, pedagogy and sociology agree that positive feedback is much more effective than negative and it's healthier in the long run.