37 ms·

> eminently stable and usable X11 FUD. Wayland works fine. I have been using Sway for years now without issue. It is also more secure[1], maintained[2] and ev

by dngray 3y ago

> eminently stable and usable X11 FUD. Wayland works fine. I have been using Sway for years now without issue. It is also more secure[1], maintained[2] and even works with NVIDIA's proprietary driver. [3][4]. It also isn't the antiquated piece of crap that X11[5] is, which has trouble with things like mixed DPI, and other modern features that Windows and macOS do completely fine without "tweaking" [6]. If Wayland did not exist I would not be using Linux on a desktop. The "screen tearing" with X11 when using a compositor was painful. [1] https://blog.invisiblethings.org/2011/04/23/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html https://blog.invisiblethings.org/2011/04/23/linux-security-c... [2] https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Maintenance-Mode-Quickly https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Maintenance-Mode-Quickly [3] https://www.phoronix.com/news/NVIDIA-GBM-Works-With-Sway https://www.phoronix.com/news/NVIDIA-GBM-Works-With-Sway [4] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Sway-1.7-rc2 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Sway-1.7-rc2 [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsz7Shbnb9c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsz7Shbnb9c [6] https://blog.summercat.com/configuring-mixed-dpi-monitors-with-xrandr.html https://blog.summercat.com/configuring-mixed-dpi-monitors-wi...

badsectoracula 3y ago
> FUD. One can say the same about your post being FUD against Xorg. For example that first Phoronix post is about RedHat's official stance on Xorg support not about everyone else, other developers still work on it. In fact just a couple of months ago someone implemented tear-free mode in the modesetting driver which would address your issue with "screen tearing".
- kaba0 3y ago
  > other developers still work on it Who? I’m sure you could easily prove it instead of relying on hearsay.
  - badsectoracula 3y ago
    You can easily check that by looking the xserver commits, it isn't like they are hidden. The TearFree stuff was added by Sultan Alsawaf who doesn't work at RedHat (though note that above i wrote that this is the official RedHat position, that doesn't mean people from RedHat cant still contribute to the xserver).
michaelmrose 3y ago
Mixed dpi works fine under X and tearing is trivial to avoid. Meanwhile under every other Wayland compositor other than KDE apps using XWayland are at best an unusable blurry mess. Kde alone actually handles high and low dpi monitors plus xwayland acceptably and at least under void it's Wayland session is buggy affair still. As far as sway in addition to being useless for mixed DPI plus XWayland it silently fails to start with Nvidia hardware unless you pass special arguments and modify the kernel command line which just looks to normal people like totally broken. We are talking about the party with >80% of the discrete GPU market. Then there is zoom screen sharing the fix to make it work with Wayland theoretically came out 4 days ago and is probably still a crap experience. You will probably suggest getting rid of all XWayland using apps,Nvidia, and zoom but this isn't how people actually use platforms. If something is supported and available it becomes part of people's expected workflow and people who get a frozen back screen don't throw away their workflow,convince their employers to drop zoom, or go shopping for a GPU they don't use the thing that makes their screen turn black. Zero fucks are given regarding whose job it is to fix it or whose "fault" it is because nobody cares about plumbing they care about apps and hardware support. The alternative is like picking an author based on his choice of word processor instead of his work. People have been calling criticism of Wayland FUD for a decade. For most of that period the actual experience using existing hardware and apps has been pretty bad. The gap between proponents vision and users actual experience is especially large when user uses old stable software and proponents use very recent versions. This means proponents have taught users they are full of shit and Wayland sucks. This will persist even when all issues are well addressed on versions of software actually used by the majority of people.
- rawoke083600 3y ago
  100% my experience as well ! a Few times a year I try to move to Wayland on my modest old Asus laptop with NVIDIA 950M chip. Either I spend the day with black screens and weird fixes that I had to google on my phone. Or if Nvidia is working there is at least two other things broken, which never seems like an easy fix. Zoom, tearing, dpi etc. I'm sure you experience are different than mine, but currently these are the problems I have with Wayland and the not have with Xorg.
- 3y ago
rirze 3y ago
I just recently had to switch from a wayland WM (Hyprland) to an X11 due to numerous issues: - Screen tearing galore (apparently documented but been awaiting a fix upstream for 2+ years) - Inconsistent input lag across apps. Notably Electron apps, like discord, where the longer I type, the more input lag I experience. - Blinking apps. When resizing/going fullscreen/refreshing, applications will show desktop wallpaper randomly. I wish Wayland was more stable for me personally. I want a smooth lagless experience but using a Wayland ecosystem with Nvidia is not where I want it right now...

by dngray 3y ago

badsectoracula 3y ago

> FUD. One can say the same about your post being FUD against Xorg. For example that first Phoronix post is about RedHat's official stance on Xorg support not about everyone else, other developers still work on it. In fact just a couple of months ago someone implemented tear-free mode in the modesetting driver which would address your issue with "screen tearing".

kaba0 3y ago
> other developers still work on it Who? I’m sure you could easily prove it instead of relying on hearsay.
- badsectoracula 3y ago
  You can easily check that by looking the xserver commits, it isn't like they are hidden. The TearFree stuff was added by Sultan Alsawaf who doesn't work at RedHat (though note that above i wrote that this is the official RedHat position, that doesn't mean people from RedHat cant still contribute to the xserver).

michaelmrose 3y ago

Mixed dpi works fine under X and tearing is trivial to avoid. Meanwhile under every other Wayland compositor other than KDE apps using XWayland are at best an unusable blurry mess. Kde alone actually handles high and low dpi monitors plus xwayland acceptably and at least under void it's Wayland session is buggy affair still. As far as sway in addition to being useless for mixed DPI plus XWayland it silently fails to start with Nvidia hardware unless you pass special arguments and modify the kernel command line which just looks to normal people like totally broken. We are talking about the party with >80% of the discrete GPU market. Then there is zoom screen sharing the fix to make it work with Wayland theoretically came out 4 days ago and is probably still a crap experience. You will probably suggest getting rid of all XWayland using apps,Nvidia, and zoom but this isn't how people actually use platforms. If something is supported and available it becomes part of people's expected workflow and people who get a frozen back screen don't throw away their workflow,convince their employers to drop zoom, or go shopping for a GPU they don't use the thing that makes their screen turn black. Zero fucks are given regarding whose job it is to fix it or whose "fault" it is because nobody cares about plumbing they care about apps and hardware support. The alternative is like picking an author based on his choice of word processor instead of his work. People have been calling criticism of Wayland FUD for a decade. For most of that period the actual experience using existing hardware and apps has been pretty bad. The gap between proponents vision and users actual experience is especially large when user uses old stable software and proponents use very recent versions. This means proponents have taught users they are full of shit and Wayland sucks. This will persist even when all issues are well addressed on versions of software actually used by the majority of people.

rawoke083600 3y ago
100% my experience as well ! a Few times a year I try to move to Wayland on my modest old Asus laptop with NVIDIA 950M chip. Either I spend the day with black screens and weird fixes that I had to google on my phone. Or if Nvidia is working there is at least two other things broken, which never seems like an easy fix. Zoom, tearing, dpi etc. I'm sure you experience are different than mine, but currently these are the problems I have with Wayland and the not have with Xorg.
3y ago

rirze 3y ago

I just recently had to switch from a wayland WM (Hyprland) to an X11 due to numerous issues: - Screen tearing galore (apparently documented but been awaiting a fix upstream for 2+ years) - Inconsistent input lag across apps. Notably Electron apps, like discord, where the longer I type, the more input lag I experience. - Blinking apps. When resizing/going fullscreen/refreshing, applications will show desktop wallpaper randomly. I wish Wayland was more stable for me personally. I want a smooth lagless experience but using a Wayland ecosystem with Nvidia is not where I want it right now...