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> The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Wait, are you talking about "person

by pierat 3y ago

> The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Wait, are you talking about "personal" shame, or "corporate" shame. Cause if anything, corporations have none, and people are *learning* to also have no shame. Doesnt get you anything. Just makes you feel bad for no good reason, cause others are pointing a finger at you. > Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Simply put: fuck the social contract. I didn't sign it. It doesnt get me any benefits, and all it is a whole lot of "costs", all of which are ill defined. So, no. > Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created a significant subclass of infantile or openly hostile actors. Being my username, a "pierat", has actually gotten me standing in communities. I democratize content access to the low common denominator of 0. I help others get the content they need or want. Im doing a lot better than capitalists slapping bills on access to everything... even if it does actually cost me money. > It will likely result in people reaching for a paternal “strongman” figure and a subsequent slide into (probably) fascism. We already are. Its not like anything I can do will affect that. I mean, whoop-te-doo, I make a pile of votes for even worse sycophantic leeches than myself every 2 years. And being in the "other party's state" (I mean, does it really matter?) my votes are effectively wasted. But it costs me 15 minutes.

deprecative 3y ago
I don't think folks want to hear or think about why shame has gone, or is going, away. Having shame will only ever interfere with the pursuit of money. As we live in a capitalist society money is the only important thing in life. You literally cannot live without it. Why would I have shame? Why would anyone? Love? Family? Friends? Those do not pay the bills. As we are hyper individualist and capitalist there is no moral or ethical cohesive force beyond the ability to secure money. People don't seem to grasp that and rely on outdated nonsense like God or Religion. Guess what? Shame is only a detriment these days because of the society we've all agreed to participate in.
zer8k 3y ago
> Simply put: fuck the social contract. I didn't sign it. It doesnt get me any benefits, and all it is a whole lot of "costs", all of which are ill defined. All of your "polite" behavior is modified by shame. To use an extreme, contrived, example if you shit on the floor your parents probably shamed you into using the restroom properly. You can, of course, continue to shit on the floor but you also can't act with such righteous indignation when no one wants you around. Perhaps you find a group of people who shit on the floor. But then they, too, will have their own shame-based norms that will you either comply to or be ostracized from the group. Now, scratch the example of shitting on the floor and replace it with any other behavior. Depending on the group you belong to (or are trying to belong to) shame is an effective way in enforcing expected behavior. It's one of the things that separate us from other animals. If you don't respond to shame (rather than just acting like it) you are not quirky and original you are likely a sociopath.
- op00to 3y ago
  Uh, as a person who recently potty trained two people, I did not use shame to teach my kids how to use the toilet. When a child had an accident, we acknowledged it, cleaned up, and moved on. No punishment, no shame.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Exactly. Shame is abused way too much to enforce conformity. Anyone growing up in a Catholic society knows what I mean. Behavior if (and only if) it really needs correcting is better corrected by understanding the reasons behind it and helping each other.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      If your daughter was raped, she brought shame to your family and you must kill her. That’s a belief and is obviously abuse of shame. Overall shame did more harm than good
  - swat535 3y ago
    Did you encourage them or told them not to do it again? If you did the latter, you shamed them using social norms. People need to feel shame and negative emotions to a degree in order to function in society. You can't simply embrace and reward everything.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> imply put: fuck the social contract. I didn't sign it. It doesnt get me any benefits, and all it is a whole lot of "costs", all of which are ill defined. I mean, this is what happens when you decide that the contract is one-sided. If a company dump toxic waste into a river you use, you must pursue them through the courts like a civilised man. Years in courts and millions in costs to get justice. If you take their waste and try Tom dump it in their office you will be arrested withing 20 minutes
haktai 3y ago
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by pierat 3y ago

deprecative 3y ago

I don't think folks want to hear or think about why shame has gone, or is going, away. Having shame will only ever interfere with the pursuit of money. As we live in a capitalist society money is the only important thing in life. You literally cannot live without it. Why would I have shame? Why would anyone? Love? Family? Friends? Those do not pay the bills. As we are hyper individualist and capitalist there is no moral or ethical cohesive force beyond the ability to secure money. People don't seem to grasp that and rely on outdated nonsense like God or Religion. Guess what? Shame is only a detriment these days because of the society we've all agreed to participate in.

zer8k 3y ago

> Simply put: fuck the social contract. I didn't sign it. It doesnt get me any benefits, and all it is a whole lot of "costs", all of which are ill defined. All of your "polite" behavior is modified by shame. To use an extreme, contrived, example if you shit on the floor your parents probably shamed you into using the restroom properly. You can, of course, continue to shit on the floor but you also can't act with such righteous indignation when no one wants you around. Perhaps you find a group of people who shit on the floor. But then they, too, will have their own shame-based norms that will you either comply to or be ostracized from the group. Now, scratch the example of shitting on the floor and replace it with any other behavior. Depending on the group you belong to (or are trying to belong to) shame is an effective way in enforcing expected behavior. It's one of the things that separate us from other animals. If you don't respond to shame (rather than just acting like it) you are not quirky and original you are likely a sociopath.

op00to 3y ago
Uh, as a person who recently potty trained two people, I did not use shame to teach my kids how to use the toilet. When a child had an accident, we acknowledged it, cleaned up, and moved on. No punishment, no shame.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Exactly. Shame is abused way too much to enforce conformity. Anyone growing up in a Catholic society knows what I mean. Behavior if (and only if) it really needs correcting is better corrected by understanding the reasons behind it and helping each other.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    If your daughter was raped, she brought shame to your family and you must kill her. That’s a belief and is obviously abuse of shame. Overall shame did more harm than good
- swat535 3y ago
  Did you encourage them or told them not to do it again? If you did the latter, you shamed them using social norms. People need to feel shame and negative emotions to a degree in order to function in society. You can't simply embrace and reward everything.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> imply put: fuck the social contract. I didn't sign it. It doesnt get me any benefits, and all it is a whole lot of "costs", all of which are ill defined. I mean, this is what happens when you decide that the contract is one-sided. If a company dump toxic waste into a river you use, you must pursue them through the courts like a civilised man. Years in courts and millions in costs to get justice. If you take their waste and try Tom dump it in their office you will be arrested withing 20 minutes

haktai 3y ago

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