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Yes, exactly. The confusion (not unique on your part) comes from the notion that REST has something to do with the JSON/XML APIs that the term conjures up in y

by cxr 3y ago

Yes, exactly. The confusion (not unique on your part) comes from the notion that REST has something to do with the JSON/XML APIs that the term conjures up in your mind. Whoever said that's what it was supposed to mean? (Lots of people, I know. The point is, they're wrong.) REST is just how the Web works (or at least worked—at the time that Fielding wrote his dissertation). jcrites explains it really well: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23672561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23672561> The answer to your question, "has anyone ever made a non-toy implementation conforming to the idea of HATEOAS?", therefore, is "Yeah. Your Web browser." Disabuse yourself of anything you have ever been told that has led you to believe REST is an alternative to (or a special flavor of) RPC. It's not about RPC.

danbruc 3y ago
Then I will have to read the thesis once more. Sigh. I am pretty sure it talks about APIs, that is interfaces consumable by software. What a browser does, formatting and rendering a response, is not what I would call consuming an API. Well, the browser is actually consuming an API, it sends URLs and receives HTML or whatever. Is that the API the thesis has in mind, HTTP itself, while I was always thinking about the one on top, the one that lets me transfer money from my account to someone else? In some ways that would make sense, in others not at all.
- whstl 3y ago
  > "Is that the API the thesis has in mind, HTTP itself, while I was always thinking about the one on top, the one that lets me transfer money from my account to someone else?" Yep, that's it. Field's REST/HATEOAS can be used as a "layer" underneath a more traditional, schema-bound, RPC-like API. This is what Google did with GData, for example.
ivan_gammel 3y ago
I don’t think that is a good explanation. > REST is about describing services that you can interact with with no prior knowledge. REST is about completely decoupling the client and server (in terms of prior knowledge) beyond standardized media types (HTML, CSS, JS) The idea that REST is confined to standard media types like HTML and CSS is wrong. It is sufficient that media types are known to specific clients and server, but that does not have to include web browsers or arbitrary clients. Quote [1]: REST provides a hybrid of all three options by focusing on a shared understanding of data types with metadata, but limiting the scope of what is revealed to a standardized interface. REST components communicate by transferring a representation of a resource in a format matching one of an evolving set of standard data types, selected dynamically based on the capabilities or desires of the recipient and the nature of the resource. Whether the representation is in the same format as the raw source, or is derived from the source, remains hidden behind the interface. The benefits of the mobile object style are approximated by sending a representation that consists of instructions in the standard data format of an encapsulated rendering engine (e.g., Java [45]). [1] https://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/rest_arch_style.htm https://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/rest_arc...
- cxr 3y ago
  I don't get what your quibble is. > The idea that REST is confined to standard media types[...] is wrong You sourced the response yourself: > REST components communicate by transferring a representation of a resource in a format matching one of an evolving set of standard data types ... and given that you did just copy and paste that part, it leads me to believe that that's not what you've got an issue with. So what do you have an issue with?
  - ivan_gammel 3y ago
    „Standard media type” has different meaning in the comment you refer to and in the quote.
    - cxr 3y ago
      This is not a very helpful response.
      - ivan_gammel 3y ago
        You reference a comment that basically says that REST is HTML UI talking to server via links and forms, rather than interaction with JSON or XML-based API. This is not correct, neither according to original dissertation nor according to modern understanding of RMM 3 APIs. API using JSON can support HATEOAS. Standard media type in the sense of REST is not the W3C media type, but anything that both server and client can understand. appilcation/hal+json is a good example.
        cxr 3y ago
        Nope. Try again. It "basically" says what it says—which is the same thing that the part you quoted from Fielding says—and nowhere does it say that the media type has to be HTML, which is what you (now) seem to be implying (but are unable or unwilling to articulate for some reason).
        3y ago

by cxr 3y ago

danbruc 3y ago

Then I will have to read the thesis once more. Sigh. I am pretty sure it talks about APIs, that is interfaces consumable by software. What a browser does, formatting and rendering a response, is not what I would call consuming an API. Well, the browser is actually consuming an API, it sends URLs and receives HTML or whatever. Is that the API the thesis has in mind, HTTP itself, while I was always thinking about the one on top, the one that lets me transfer money from my account to someone else? In some ways that would make sense, in others not at all.

whstl 3y ago
> "Is that the API the thesis has in mind, HTTP itself, while I was always thinking about the one on top, the one that lets me transfer money from my account to someone else?" Yep, that's it. Field's REST/HATEOAS can be used as a "layer" underneath a more traditional, schema-bound, RPC-like API. This is what Google did with GData, for example.

ivan_gammel 3y ago

I don’t think that is a good explanation. > REST is about describing services that you can interact with with no prior knowledge. REST is about completely decoupling the client and server (in terms of prior knowledge) beyond standardized media types (HTML, CSS, JS) The idea that REST is confined to standard media types like HTML and CSS is wrong. It is sufficient that media types are known to specific clients and server, but that does not have to include web browsers or arbitrary clients. Quote [1]: REST provides a hybrid of all three options by focusing on a shared understanding of data types with metadata, but limiting the scope of what is revealed to a standardized interface. REST components communicate by transferring a representation of a resource in a format matching one of an evolving set of standard data types, selected dynamically based on the capabilities or desires of the recipient and the nature of the resource. Whether the representation is in the same format as the raw source, or is derived from the source, remains hidden behind the interface. The benefits of the mobile object style are approximated by sending a representation that consists of instructions in the standard data format of an encapsulated rendering engine (e.g., Java [45]). [1] https://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/rest_arch_style.htm https://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/rest_arc...

cxr 3y ago
I don't get what your quibble is. > The idea that REST is confined to standard media types[...] is wrong You sourced the response yourself: > REST components communicate by transferring a representation of a resource in a format matching one of an evolving set of standard data types ... and given that you did just copy and paste that part, it leads me to believe that that's not what you've got an issue with. So what do you have an issue with?
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  „Standard media type” has different meaning in the comment you refer to and in the quote.
  - cxr 3y ago
    This is not a very helpful response.
    - ivan_gammel 3y ago
      You reference a comment that basically says that REST is HTML UI talking to server via links and forms, rather than interaction with JSON or XML-based API. This is not correct, neither according to original dissertation nor according to modern understanding of RMM 3 APIs. API using JSON can support HATEOAS. Standard media type in the sense of REST is not the W3C media type, but anything that both server and client can understand. appilcation/hal+json is a good example.
      - cxr 3y ago
        Nope. Try again. It "basically" says what it says—which is the same thing that the part you quoted from Fielding says—and nowhere does it say that the media type has to be HTML, which is what you (now) seem to be implying (but are unable or unwilling to articulate for some reason).
        3y ago