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" the M1 Mac mini was the perfect hardware to test out PoE, as on idle, the device only consumes 6W. When some load is applied to the internals, that power draw
by ravetcofx 3y ago
" the M1 Mac mini was the perfect hardware to test out PoE, as on idle, the device only consumes 6W. When some load is applied to the internals, that power draw can go up to 40W. After some thorough research, we found out that the maximum throughput of Power over Ethernet was 15.4W "
They'll have to bump it up to 802.3bt (Poe ++) which can support 60W.
Cool Project though, I've been wanting to mod my Mac Mini m1 to run off USB-C PD which should be possible with modification because it uses the same PD IC as the Macbooks (CD3217) which could mean I could get it to eventually run off of a battery pack
- r00fus 3y agoWhat's the goal of having a MacMini running off an external battery? I mean, it seems less cost effective than just getting a MB Air and not using the screen...
- lapetitejort 3y agoThe goal of most of these projects are usually to demonstrate that they're possible. Actual use cases are left as an exercise for the reader.
- Dalewyn 3y ago[flagged]
- okonomiyaki3000 3y ago[flagged]
- simlevesque 3y ago> it seems less cost effective than just getting a MB Air and not using the screen... how ? why would paying for a screen and not use it be cheaper ?
- arcticbull 3y agoEconomy of scale, mostly.
- bravetraveler 3y agoAvoiding the inevitable spicy pillow seems like a good reason An external/easily replaceable battery would be excellent come time to deal with cell age
- bravetraveler 3y agoDoes this read like an attack against Apple laptops specifically, or something? Already -2 five minutes after posting it. Leaving as-is for feedback. I don't get the controversy. I could've been a jerk and said just buy a UPS - this is an established concept. Edit: thank you kind souls for restoring the imbalance - carry on :D
- NavinF 3y agoNo it just reads as kinda paranoid because li-ion cells typically become spicy pillows long after the device becomes obsolete. It's also trivial to avoid by limiting cell voltage. Many devices, most notably iPhones, automatically go into kiosk mode after charging for a few days for exactly this reason: https://support.apple.com/en-gu/HT208710 https://support.apple.com/en-gu/HT208710
- WWLink 3y agoDefinitely disagree. My own anecdotal evidence is that many many laptops left plugged in 24/7 will develop a spicy pillow after a year or two. That includes a set of Apple laptops and hundreds of Dell laptops.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y agoAnecdotally: this has never happened to me despite owning a whole bunch of laptops over the past 25 years or so.
- bravetraveler 3y agoThank you for taking the time to follow up! Definitely a bit paranoid - even if I'd prefer to call it robust :) I've had very bad luck in this regard... but haven't honestly used a laptop in probably a decade. I was pleasantly surprised to see my latest (dust-collecting) Lenovo will stop somewhere around 80%! Point being, sure - there are safety things... but batteries are consumables. I like these things to be easy-to-replace! I find these being difficult to replace accelerates this pattern of obsoleting. CPUs and (especially disks) tend to pack plenty of punch/life, these days - well beyond the mechanical/chemical things they depend on. Something to ponder - these chips may see particularly long use, being so power efficient. The utility bill won't be such a driver, sipping power and parallelizing decently.
- poolopolopolo 3y agocheaper and bigger batteries? always replaceable in the future? And tbh laptop batteries are not meant to be used 24/7, personally would avoid it.
- SmellTheGlove 3y agoNo idea, but if they got it running on USB PD, battery pack aside, it would make it a one cable connection to a monitor that has PD support. Multiple cords don’t actually bother me but it sounds kinda neat. Anyhow I guess the goal is “because you can”
- dylan604 3y agoThis would be fun for when LEOs come in to take your computer, they can easily keep it powered so all of the decrypted keys stay in memory. Killing power means going back to an encrypted state. In high profile cases for desktops, there's techniques for splicing the power cable to switch to a battery pack. This would make it much easier for the unskilled LEO to take your shit. Cause we all know you're the one they're after. Sleep tight! ;-)
- NavinF 3y agoThat's why pretty much all desktop and server mobos have a "chassis intrusion" header that you can connect to a sensor/switch. Your machine should wipe keys or reboot if it's opened or moved.
- dylan604 3y agohow does that work if the case is never opened?
- NavinF 3y agoYou can connect multiple switches in series. Eg one could be a reed switch that detects whether the PC is within 1mm of a tiny magnet in the floor.
- xp84 3y agoThis is a good idea! Kind of makes me wish I was a drug kingpin with a PC full of secrets so that I could justify trying that. Sadly I would just end up with a kid rebooting the PC by bumping into it :D
- OJFord 3y agoI could see it making sense in a 'van life' context to use a smaller local battery rather than plug everything in to your main leisure battery. Use the latter to charge Makita packs say and then run most other stuff off those (there's a decent amount of open 3D printable adapters for them, as well as third-party/AliExpress stuff).
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Gigachad 3y agoWould make way way more sense to have a macbook that you can then charge direct from a DC battery over USB-C. With the mac mini you still have to work out how to power an external screen as well.
- virtue3 3y agoThere's a lot of low power HD screens out there. It's not super difficult. Not the ideal case for sure but low power is all about tradeoffs.
- tyingq 3y agoThat it happens to be 12 volts DC has some value versus whatever power loss an inverter has for use in a vehicle. Though I'm with you on the relative ease of starting with a laptop instead.
- iseanstevens 3y agoTwo large monitors or projectors with Mac mini.
- cyberax 3y agoE.g. to run home automation in case of a power outage. I have an Intel NUC with a li-ion DC UPS exactly for this reason.
- kposehn 3y agoBattery aside, POE also allows you to put it anywhere you have ethernet cable with sufficient power delivery. In this case you could have a workstation powered entirely off ethernet delivered to the location (some monitors will also work with a POE splitter as well).
- WWLink 3y agoHeadless servers where you want a modular or easily removable battery backup. I really wish desktop PC power supplies would support such a thing. It seems stupid that we need to use a UPS with an inverter when the power supply should be rigged to accept DC input straight from a battery.
- jacknews 3y agoExactly, the PC PSU coverts AC to 12v for the PC anyway, so 12v batteries should slot into that scheme, without a separate PSU and inverter.
- consp 3y agoYou would still need a DC to DC converter as lead acids deliver anywhere from 12.8 to about 10v depending on SoC and load.
- windexh8er 3y agoRemember that DC to DC power supplies are much smaller because existing AC PSU has to deal with the transformer aspect. I worked for an ISP that was also a CLEC back in late 90s / early 2000s. All of the telco side was DC (massive 48v battery banks) - so when we were doing server implementation it made sense to get all DC PSU on the servers. Not sure why DC PSU aren't a more universal option as you'd think UPS providers could easily offer DC output models. There are options out there, I ran across this [0] looking for typical ATX DC to DC PSU. [0] https://lazer3d.com/dc-dc-power-supply-guide/ https://lazer3d.com/dc-dc-power-supply-guide/
- icehawk 3y agoFor anything larger than about 500W that'd become untenable because at 12V as you'd need cables that can carry in excess of 50A. UPS systems start connecting the batteries in series to provide higher voltages for this reason
- jacknews 3y ago
- may_i_ai_plz 3y agoIn the event of that solar flare that wipes out the grid.
- ricardobayes 3y agoIn that event, personal computing will be the least of our worries
- rfgmendoza 3y agoi would actually like being able to power my mac mini with just a usb-c dock like a macbook
- robertoandred 3y agoMight be too easy to disconnect compared to a regular power cable.
- xp84 3y agoI have been thinking it would be cool to just salvage a functional MacBook Air motherboard from a “broken” device. install that in a small case, 3D print an IO shield, and you have what you’re looking for!
- bitbckt 3y agoMinor correction: 802.3bt added 51W (Type 3) or 71W (Type 4). 60W isn't a standard power level. Some switches support up to 95W per port with PoH.
- OJFord 3y agoSurely they're all 'up to'? It's not 'you must sink this much current or else not compliant'? It seems like a weird thing for TFA to say anyway - my PoE[+] switch was the cheapest 8 port I could get a few years ago on Amazon, and does 30W per port. I don't really understand how you could look into it at all, be willing to attempt the hack, but not use a switch (or injector or whatever) that's capable of powering it under load.
- bitbckt 3y agoHah, yes they are all 'up to' on the device side. A switch port or injector is not compliant with a particular standard if it does not provide for the type-specific load, however.
- jtriangle 3y agoDepends. Within the standard, you can do 51w at the full 100m on standard cat6, which is 300ma/pair. If your runs are shorter, you should be good to go at the full type4 current, or, 960ma. This is a good reference for this: https://www.5gtechnologyworld.com/what-every-engineer-should-know-about-ieee-802-3bt-poe/ https://www.5gtechnologyworld.com/what-every-engineer-should... which goes into how to calc your total bundle dissipation and whatnot.
- donw 3y ago“By ‘Energy Star’ compliant, we mean that it burns as much energy as the sun.”
- dev_tty01 3y agoThey said it "can support 60W." As you point out, Type 4 can support up to 71W, so yes it can support 60W. They didn't assert that it is a standard power level.
- dheera 3y agoI'm very skeptical of PoE now after 3 PoE adapters killed 3 Raspberry Pis I have. I wouldn't want to risk something more expensive to that shit. At this point I'd rather just have straight up 19V + and - cables bundled together with the Ethernet with some heatshrink around the whole thing to make it look like 1 cable.
- CameronNemo 3y agoYou sure you want to blame poe as a whole instead of the RPI hat?
- dheera 3y agoSure it could be the RPi hat, but it just means the standard is so complicated that people don't implement it correctly. I wouldn't trust the hat or whatever you call it for Mac Mini.
- wolrah 3y ago> Sure it could be the RPi hat, but it just means the standard is so complicated that people don't implement it correctly. Or there are ways to cheap out on a PoE device that may work in some cases but don't fully and properly implement the standard. The standard is widely used in VoIP phones, wireless access points, security cameras, and all sorts of other networked devices that get installed in places that may not have nearby power outlets or where a single wire solution is beneficial. Personally I have three Pis that have been on PoE their entire lives and have had no problem, but I used a name brand PoE hat (the Waveshare hat with the OLED display) and am powering them from a mainstream PoE switch. If you're using some random AliExpress hat with janky injectors you get what you pay for. > I wouldn't trust the hat or whatever you call it for Mac Mini. Almost any large commercial building has had hardware running on PoE that costs more than the average Mac Mini for years. Most PTZ cameras for example, high-end directional wireless bridges, even some nicer wireless access points.
- dheera 3y ago
- kposehn 3y agoI'm going to try this with my extra Mac mini and one of my switches that outputs POE++ at the full 60w. I should even be able to do this using a fairly bog-standard POE splitter from POE Texas that'll actually deliver a full 60W. Edit: Here's the injector I'll probably use - https://shop.poetexas.com/collections/splitters/products/gbt-12v60w https://shop.poetexas.com/collections/splitters/products/gbt...
- wslh 3y agoWhen it is off you can charge it with a simple mobile phone charger.
- parentheses 3y agoThis change/mod involving one of the most locked-down devices seems pointless. What do you like about the project? Or is it that the additional cable is so irksome? I have my own "must-do" projects that from outside perspective is seen as pointless. So, this is more about understanding than poking holes.
- pcdoodle 3y agoAnother way to look at it, you can put one of the most powerful mini computers at the edge with PoE, think machine vision with industrial USB camera type of scenario.
- wpm 3y agoIf you don't get PD working, you can always just build a battery pack that charges itself over USB-PD, and outputs 12V. Apparently the built in PSU on the Mini takes 120/240V and outputs nothing but 12.
- throwaway894345 3y agoI’d be very curious to understand (even very crudely) the breakdown of those 40W. Roughly how much does each internal component consume at its peak load? Or at least for the top offenders.
- ravetcofx 3y ago80%+ will be the M1/M2 SOC with it's on package Ram, ~5% will be SSD, 5%-10% Fan, remaining will be supporting circuitry (buck converters, regulators etc)