5 ms·

The solution that seems most likely to work IMO seems to be a European-style welfare state. All drugs have long been decriminalized in Portugal and you don’t se

by rvcdbn 3y ago

The solution that seems most likely to work IMO seems to be a European-style welfare state. All drugs have long been decriminalized in Portugal and you don’t see that kind of thing on the streets of Lisbon. But I don’t see that happening any time soon in the USA.

tlogan 3y ago
> you don’t see that kind of thing > on the streets of Lisbon. Actually that is exactly what I saw on the streets of Lisbon. Please do visit by yourself.
- rvcdbn 3y ago
  I visited before the pandemic when last did you visit SF because I think it’s a totally different scale. EDIT: just googled the stats and the number of homeless in SF is roughly the same as the whole of Portugal
cyberax 3y ago
Portugal has not yet been fully hit with dirt-cheap fentanyl. It IS different from other drugs.
- tlogan 3y ago
  It seems it got hit this year ( visiting as tourist). Rome and Milan too (visiting family).
rvcdbn 3y ago
Actually one thing I would be curious to try is to substitute ketamine for opiates. It might work out that some people prefer it and it’s far less harmful on the body. Problem is it’s super expensive compared to opiates.
whiddershins 3y ago
That’s because they will arrest you for doing that in Lisbon. Decriminalization doesn’t mean just do whatever you want in public.
LawTalkingGuy 3y ago
> All drugs have long been decriminalized in Portugal Portugal did not decriminalize use of drugs! Public use of drugs, and being uncontrollably high in public, is criminal and they use the court system to force people into voluntary rehab (the other choice is prison) where they use an evidence-based drug treatment system and up to a few years of job skills and counseling before releasing the person. Decisions are made by a panel of doctors and ex street-junkies who know the truth of the situation and what the addicted will say and do. Portland Oregon on the other decriminalized the drugs - as in you can buy and inject anything in front of a cop and pass out in your own vomit in the middle of the sidewalk and the police can't even move you. Regrettably they knowingly chose to reference Portugal as if they were following its advice while using the terminology to describe a completely different system. > Actually one thing I would be curious to try is to substitute ketamine for opiates. It might work out that some people prefer it and it’s far less harmful on the body. That feels like the joke about Freud trying to cure Cocaine addiction with Heroin and merely inventing the speedball. What do you think of Suboxone? It blocks withdrawal symptoms and the further effect of opioids, making users not suffer or want more drugs during the process. At the end, the user is not dependent or addicted, and is ready for actual rehabilitation.
- rvcdbn 3y ago
  You're probably right about the Portugal example, I don't know enough about it to know if it is the solution for sure. I was just grasping for what I could only think of as the best possible solution. Perhaps there truly is no solution. But criminalization certainly isn't the solution. Hiding the problem in order to allow the rest of society to ignore it more easily is obviously (to me at least) less desirable than having it in the open where we are all forced to share at least some small part of the burden, the hope being that this will push us to find real solutions. Re: ketamine - the point is that many these folks are seeking an escape from an unbearable life. In that position, there is really no desire to neuter the drug. I'm pretty sure Suboxone availability is not the issue. Ketamine on the other hand might provide a similar escape without most of the harmful side effects. It's pretty obvious that ketamine is much less harmful in every way than heroin.
  - 3y ago

by rvcdbn 3y ago

tlogan 3y ago

> you don’t see that kind of thing > on the streets of Lisbon. Actually that is exactly what I saw on the streets of Lisbon. Please do visit by yourself.

rvcdbn 3y ago
I visited before the pandemic when last did you visit SF because I think it’s a totally different scale. EDIT: just googled the stats and the number of homeless in SF is roughly the same as the whole of Portugal

cyberax 3y ago

Portugal has not yet been fully hit with dirt-cheap fentanyl. It IS different from other drugs.

tlogan 3y ago
It seems it got hit this year ( visiting as tourist). Rome and Milan too (visiting family).

rvcdbn 3y ago

Actually one thing I would be curious to try is to substitute ketamine for opiates. It might work out that some people prefer it and it’s far less harmful on the body. Problem is it’s super expensive compared to opiates.

whiddershins 3y ago

That’s because they will arrest you for doing that in Lisbon. Decriminalization doesn’t mean just do whatever you want in public.

LawTalkingGuy 3y ago

> All drugs have long been decriminalized in Portugal Portugal did not decriminalize use of drugs! Public use of drugs, and being uncontrollably high in public, is criminal and they use the court system to force people into voluntary rehab (the other choice is prison) where they use an evidence-based drug treatment system and up to a few years of job skills and counseling before releasing the person. Decisions are made by a panel of doctors and ex street-junkies who know the truth of the situation and what the addicted will say and do. Portland Oregon on the other decriminalized the drugs - as in you can buy and inject anything in front of a cop and pass out in your own vomit in the middle of the sidewalk and the police can't even move you. Regrettably they knowingly chose to reference Portugal as if they were following its advice while using the terminology to describe a completely different system. > Actually one thing I would be curious to try is to substitute ketamine for opiates. It might work out that some people prefer it and it’s far less harmful on the body. That feels like the joke about Freud trying to cure Cocaine addiction with Heroin and merely inventing the speedball. What do you think of Suboxone? It blocks withdrawal symptoms and the further effect of opioids, making users not suffer or want more drugs during the process. At the end, the user is not dependent or addicted, and is ready for actual rehabilitation.

rvcdbn 3y ago
You're probably right about the Portugal example, I don't know enough about it to know if it is the solution for sure. I was just grasping for what I could only think of as the best possible solution. Perhaps there truly is no solution. But criminalization certainly isn't the solution. Hiding the problem in order to allow the rest of society to ignore it more easily is obviously (to me at least) less desirable than having it in the open where we are all forced to share at least some small part of the burden, the hope being that this will push us to find real solutions. Re: ketamine - the point is that many these folks are seeking an escape from an unbearable life. In that position, there is really no desire to neuter the drug. I'm pretty sure Suboxone availability is not the issue. Ketamine on the other hand might provide a similar escape without most of the harmful side effects. It's pretty obvious that ketamine is much less harmful in every way than heroin.
- 3y ago