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I agree that the line is fuzzy, not sharp. But either way, how do you precisely determine the parameters of the line or gradient experimentally? It's my per

I agree that the line is fuzzy, not sharp. But either way, how do you precisely determine the parameters of the line or gradient experimentally? It's my personal belief that a salmon is conscious, but less so than a dog, and that a preying mantis is conscious, but less so than a salmon. But these aren't beliefs handed to me by science, they're just my guesses informed by some casual knowledge of how complex the brains of these animals are. I assume that anything with a brain can have the experience of consciousness and that this has some relationship to the complexity of the brain, but I can't confidently say much more than that. How does an octopus rank against a dog? I have no clue, their brains are structured very different so it's hard to compare the two. Octopus seem to be very smart but their subjective experience could be very different. That's not something I have insight into. Are orcas more conscious than humans? Their brains are bigger and wrinklier, so I think the answer is definitely maybe! There's a distinct possibility that in the mind of an orca the orca is more aware of itself than humans could possibly ever be, but how can we really know that for sure? I can't experience what an orca experiences, so I can't directly compare the orca mental experience to my own. Studying the behavior of orcas can reveal interesting facts, such as their use of language and complex social relationships, but as evidence of subjective consciousness these are indirect at best. Maybe some day we'll have scientific instruments that will allow one being to 'psychically link' with others and experience the other's subjective sense of being. But until we've got something like that, I think the matter is effectively closed to empirical inquiry.

lisper 3y ago
> how do you precisely determine the parameters of the line or gradient experimentally? Well, one way is to observe similarities in the I/O behavior of these various systems, and in particular if they exhibit any evidence that they have goals and desires, and then beyond that if those goals and desires extend beyond merely that necessary to survive and reproduce. So for example, the fact that some humans seem to want to do things like read and write and make art is IMHO is evidence that they are more conscious than salmon.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  It's indirect evidence at best. Some people value artistic endeavors more than others but I don't think most people would agree that artists are more human than the rest of us. These differences in behavior might evidence differences in values or opportunity. For instance, with thumbs and a terrestrial lifestyle, humans are more capable of producing art and technology than just about any other animal. But I don't find this to be a persuasive argument for human minds being more sophisticated than orcas. Even if art is the answer, our lack of insight into orca language makes it difficult if not impossible to fairly compare them to us. Maybe Orcas have poetry so sophisticated and beautiful that it puts all human art to shame, but it's completely inaccessible to us because we don't understand their language. Or maybe they're far smarter and more aware than us and could compose such poetry, but choose not to simply because they don't value it.
  - lisper 3y ago
    I didn't mean for math and art to be an exhaustive list. Remember, my actual criterion was: > if they exhibit ... evidence that they have goals and desires ... beyond merely that necessary to survive and reproduce Orcas qualify because they play with their food. It's quite gruesome to watch. (And, BTW, this particular behavior is evidence that either orcas do not have a theory of mind or they lack empathy for animals that they eat. The former would be the charitable interpretation.)

lisper 3y ago

> how do you precisely determine the parameters of the line or gradient experimentally? Well, one way is to observe similarities in the I/O behavior of these various systems, and in particular if they exhibit any evidence that they have goals and desires, and then beyond that if those goals and desires extend beyond merely that necessary to survive and reproduce. So for example, the fact that some humans seem to want to do things like read and write and make art is IMHO is evidence that they are more conscious than salmon.

mcpackieh 3y ago
It's indirect evidence at best. Some people value artistic endeavors more than others but I don't think most people would agree that artists are more human than the rest of us. These differences in behavior might evidence differences in values or opportunity. For instance, with thumbs and a terrestrial lifestyle, humans are more capable of producing art and technology than just about any other animal. But I don't find this to be a persuasive argument for human minds being more sophisticated than orcas. Even if art is the answer, our lack of insight into orca language makes it difficult if not impossible to fairly compare them to us. Maybe Orcas have poetry so sophisticated and beautiful that it puts all human art to shame, but it's completely inaccessible to us because we don't understand their language. Or maybe they're far smarter and more aware than us and could compose such poetry, but choose not to simply because they don't value it.
- lisper 3y ago
  I didn't mean for math and art to be an exhaustive list. Remember, my actual criterion was: > if they exhibit ... evidence that they have goals and desires ... beyond merely that necessary to survive and reproduce Orcas qualify because they play with their food. It's quite gruesome to watch. (And, BTW, this particular behavior is evidence that either orcas do not have a theory of mind or they lack empathy for animals that they eat. The former would be the charitable interpretation.)