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Electric cars are not intrinsically more expensive. Because EVs are simpler mechanically they will be cheaper to make than ICE cars once the battery packs get c

by w0mbat 3y ago

Electric cars are not intrinsically more expensive. Because EVs are simpler mechanically they will be cheaper to make than ICE cars once the battery packs get cheap enough. It is an ever-descending cost as the technology improves and the volume goes up. I agree that greedy Ford dealers helped cause this problem. I looked at the Ford Mach-E but was turned off by dealer markup, got a Tesla instead.

antisthenes 3y ago
> Electric cars are not intrinsically more expensive. Because EVs are simpler mechanically they will be cheaper to make than ICE cars once the battery packs get cheap enough. This is nonsense, because the battery packs are already cheap enough. The value of savings from cheap battery packs is simply not being passed on to the end consumer, because the car companies and dealerships can get away with not doing so. It doesn't matter if Ford or Tesla builds battery packs for $90/KWh and the engine is 2x cheaper than the ICE car, if later on it is marked up appropriately to be sold as a luxury good. NONE of the battery packs in current EVs cost more than $10000 to make, for ANY manufacturer. Which means they are pricing the econoboxes that contain the batteries at $30,000, which is ridiculous.
- antisyzygy 3y ago
  There's another angle there too. The dealers are often up-charging MORE for fuel efficient hybrids or EVs. It might be 2-5k more for a gas burner, but you get nailed 10k over MSRP for the hybrid or EV option. They're effectively making you pay the difference in the cost of gasoline up front so there's no economic incentive to the consumer to get the better MPG or emission-free option. I haven't done the math but intuitively it seems like you end up pre-paying the difference you'd save by using less to no gasoline. I think part of it is also that dealers / manufacturers are creatively trying to capture tax incentives as well. Instead of the consumer getting a cheaper EV via tax breaks, the dealer or manufacture charges that much more and it ends up in their pocket. It's messed up. Just about every large business in America is on the government teat in various creative ways. They're not innovating or competing anymore.
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    > They're effectively making you pay the difference in the cost of gasoline up front so there's no economic incentive to the consumer to get the better MPG or emission-free option. A different way to look at it: the dealers are trying to make you pay for the difference in oil changes and maintenance costs. EVs don't need regular oil changes and service checkups. For many dealers those services are their actual bread-and-butter where they make the most profit.
martin8412 3y ago
Ah yes, the battery which is the most expensive part that also determines range doesn't make the car more expensive. Let's the poors have a 1kWh battery.
- w0mbat 3y ago
  The battery pack does not have to be expensive, and they have in fact been getting cheaper and more energy dense year after year. Technology moves on.
antisyzygy 3y ago
Screw Ford dealers. Ford should go direct. Lobby for changing the law to get rid of these parasites. I just bought a ford less than a year ago. One of those Maverick trucks since the gas mileage is really good. It's a good suburban truck for hauling or camping that still lets you commute to the city and navigate tight spaces. The hybrids were actually marked up the worst, often 10k rather than 5k, and couldn't have AWD which was one of my requirements.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  Ford would have to find a way to "fire" most of their shareholders first given how many of their most vocal shareholders are dealers.
- tracker1 3y ago
  I saw Lightning trucks going upwards of 40k over list. It was ridiculous, definitely won't be buying anything from that company any time soon. I think the dealers are entrenched middle men and it's time for more competition all around.
tracker1 3y ago
I don't think adding a massive Lithium-Ion battery pack is less expensive than an ICE engine. Not even considering the scarcity and environmental cost of said battery packs at current production levels, which would only increase at scale.
- w0mbat 3y ago
  It doesn't just remove the need for an ICE engine, also the gearbox, fuel pump, fuel tank, radiator, exhaust system including catalytic convertor, etc. An ICE engine is intrinsically complex to make, has many moving parts that wear out, is hot because it is inefficient at turning fuel into power. Plus, you know, the pollution. A battery pack that holds sufficient joules is not intrinsically large and expensive any more than a 100 megabyte disk had to be the size of a washing machine and cost as much as a house, which was once the case. Battery packs, even with current technology, cause little to no environmental damage, that is oil industry propaganda. Lithium and cobalt are fairly common, and all the cobalt we would ever need is accidentally produced as a side-effect of copper and nickel mining all over the world, that we would be doing anyway.
  - tracker1 3y ago
    Have you seen the battery packs in vehicles that have anything resembling a decent range? They're massive, and yes they are expensive.

by w0mbat 3y ago

antisthenes 3y ago

> Electric cars are not intrinsically more expensive. Because EVs are simpler mechanically they will be cheaper to make than ICE cars once the battery packs get cheap enough. This is nonsense, because the battery packs are already cheap enough. The value of savings from cheap battery packs is simply not being passed on to the end consumer, because the car companies and dealerships can get away with not doing so. It doesn't matter if Ford or Tesla builds battery packs for $90/KWh and the engine is 2x cheaper than the ICE car, if later on it is marked up appropriately to be sold as a luxury good. NONE of the battery packs in current EVs cost more than $10000 to make, for ANY manufacturer. Which means they are pricing the econoboxes that contain the batteries at $30,000, which is ridiculous.

antisyzygy 3y ago
There's another angle there too. The dealers are often up-charging MORE for fuel efficient hybrids or EVs. It might be 2-5k more for a gas burner, but you get nailed 10k over MSRP for the hybrid or EV option. They're effectively making you pay the difference in the cost of gasoline up front so there's no economic incentive to the consumer to get the better MPG or emission-free option. I haven't done the math but intuitively it seems like you end up pre-paying the difference you'd save by using less to no gasoline. I think part of it is also that dealers / manufacturers are creatively trying to capture tax incentives as well. Instead of the consumer getting a cheaper EV via tax breaks, the dealer or manufacture charges that much more and it ends up in their pocket. It's messed up. Just about every large business in America is on the government teat in various creative ways. They're not innovating or competing anymore.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  > They're effectively making you pay the difference in the cost of gasoline up front so there's no economic incentive to the consumer to get the better MPG or emission-free option. A different way to look at it: the dealers are trying to make you pay for the difference in oil changes and maintenance costs. EVs don't need regular oil changes and service checkups. For many dealers those services are their actual bread-and-butter where they make the most profit.

martin8412 3y ago

Ah yes, the battery which is the most expensive part that also determines range doesn't make the car more expensive. Let's the poors have a 1kWh battery.

w0mbat 3y ago
The battery pack does not have to be expensive, and they have in fact been getting cheaper and more energy dense year after year. Technology moves on.

antisyzygy 3y ago

Screw Ford dealers. Ford should go direct. Lobby for changing the law to get rid of these parasites. I just bought a ford less than a year ago. One of those Maverick trucks since the gas mileage is really good. It's a good suburban truck for hauling or camping that still lets you commute to the city and navigate tight spaces. The hybrids were actually marked up the worst, often 10k rather than 5k, and couldn't have AWD which was one of my requirements.

WorldMaker 3y ago
Ford would have to find a way to "fire" most of their shareholders first given how many of their most vocal shareholders are dealers.
tracker1 3y ago
I saw Lightning trucks going upwards of 40k over list. It was ridiculous, definitely won't be buying anything from that company any time soon. I think the dealers are entrenched middle men and it's time for more competition all around.

tracker1 3y ago

I don't think adding a massive Lithium-Ion battery pack is less expensive than an ICE engine. Not even considering the scarcity and environmental cost of said battery packs at current production levels, which would only increase at scale.

w0mbat 3y ago
It doesn't just remove the need for an ICE engine, also the gearbox, fuel pump, fuel tank, radiator, exhaust system including catalytic convertor, etc. An ICE engine is intrinsically complex to make, has many moving parts that wear out, is hot because it is inefficient at turning fuel into power. Plus, you know, the pollution. A battery pack that holds sufficient joules is not intrinsically large and expensive any more than a 100 megabyte disk had to be the size of a washing machine and cost as much as a house, which was once the case. Battery packs, even with current technology, cause little to no environmental damage, that is oil industry propaganda. Lithium and cobalt are fairly common, and all the cobalt we would ever need is accidentally produced as a side-effect of copper and nickel mining all over the world, that we would be doing anyway.
- tracker1 3y ago
  Have you seen the battery packs in vehicles that have anything resembling a decent range? They're massive, and yes they are expensive.