6 ms·

Isn't the 'hey man' a bit of a leap? From the username it's hard for me to tell, and the profile doesn't mention preferred pronouns. I don't want to start a fi

Isn't the 'hey man' a bit of a leap? From the username it's hard for me to tell, and the profile doesn't mention preferred pronouns. I don't want to start a fight, and basically agree with your comment. It's probably because I'm trans that I really notice pointlessly gendered language, and I just want to mildly make you aware that if you wrote 'hey man' to me (by mistake, no malice presumed) then I'd be a little crestfallen. I know old habits die hard - I myself used to use such language. So I don't want to be too harsh, and equally, maybe you know more details such that the 'man' is justified. But your comment is ultimately about manners, so I think it's appropriate for me to point this out.

extasia 3y ago
I think it's being used endearingly, regardless of the person's gender. I see your point though and can understand how it may make you feel as a transwoman. How might one achieve the same effect with different phrasing?
- seertaak 3y ago
  Heya, I really appreciate you actually listening to what I said, instead of splitting hairs and arguing with me! Empathy is such a lovely quality. To answer your question, I would (did, hihi) drop the 'man'. If you want to remain 'folksy', you could say 'my friend, ...'. Finally, I agree that it was used endearingly - that's why my comment was pretty milquetoast :) I recognize I'm asking you to do something 'extra'. I really appreciate it!
  - extasia 3y ago
    Thanks, yeah! Empathy is wonderful:) Might be a regional thing but "my friend" sounds very condescending / patronising to me! I'd personally feel quite upset if somebody began a critique of my behaviour with that. I guess "buddy" or "mate" might work though!
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
sam_goody 3y ago
Would you say the same to "Oh, man!", "C'mon man", "man alive", or even (in context) "man overboard"? I don't think these phrases are referring to the subject they are addressing.
- seertaak 3y ago
  I would drop it where an interlocutor is specifically referenced. So 'oh man' is ok. But c'mon man usually expresses disagreement with a specific person. So while I would certainly say c'mon man to a trans or cis masc (which, if I had any shadow of a doubt, I would determine by querying their pronouns, after sharing mine so as not to inadvertently put them on the spot), I would definitely not say it to a trans or cis fem, and also not to an enby. Someone's life obviously takes priority over gender sensitivity :) Again, I realize it's a bit of (cognitive) work, and takes some getting used to. But this is hacker news - a certain intellectual pedigree is assumed.
ninesnines 3y ago
an 'Oi' can also work wonders! :)
pyyyt 3y ago
[flagged]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tailspin2019 3y ago
This was such a brilliantly polite way to make this point! (And I’m not piling on to the parent because I’m certain I make similar missteps with language sometimes)
porkbeer 3y ago
Oh man is something I say to all sexes. Your comment just seems to be policing language with no point. This kinda stuff hurts your cause, which I wholly support.
- seertaak 3y ago
  > policing language with no point The point is to avoid a situation where a (usually cis) person inadvertently invalidates a trans person's gender identity. > This kinda stuff hurts your cause So iiuc, what you're saying is, asking to use language that respects someone's gender identity hurts the cause of respecting people's gender identity.
  - pyyyt 3y ago
    [flagged]
muzani 3y ago
I think at this point it's just best to assume that "dude", "man", and "bro/bruh" in slang are just gender neutral. There seems to be something about the English language where people think gendered language relates to gender. But in other languages, a table or a bridge may have a gender. A cat may be referred to as a she, despite its physical sex or gender identity.
- 2143 3y ago
  > There seems to be something about the English language where people think gendered language relates to gender. This. Sometimes when people talk about using gender-neutral terms, I wonder how it would work in other languages. As you said, for some languages there is a gender for inanimate objects. In Arabic for example, apparently everything is either feminine or masculine. All countries are feminine, table is masculine, and chair is feminine [1], book is masculine, and car is feminine [2]. Other languages such as French, Russian, and Spanish also seems to assign genders to objects. The Sanskrit language on the other hand seems designed with feminine, masculine, and neuter, but some objects have a non-neuter gender anyway. Quoting from [3] (on Sanskrit): > "Fruit" is neuter, but "tree" is masculine! "City" is neuter, but "village" is masculine! "Army" and "knowledge" are feminine, but "action" is neuter! In truth, most nouns take a certain gender by default, and we cannot guess a noun's gender just by looking at a noun's meaning. [1] https://blogs.transparent.com/arabic/noun-gender-in-arabic/ https://blogs.transparent.com/arabic/noun-gender-in-arabic/ [2] https://openbooks.lib.msu.edu/arb101/chapter/vocabulary-and-grammar-2/ https://openbooks.lib.msu.edu/arb101/chapter/vocabulary-and-... [3] https://www.learnsanskrit.org/start/nouns/ https://www.learnsanskrit.org/start/nouns/
  - bloak 3y ago
    > Other languages such as French, Russian, and Spanish also seems to assign genders to objects. Those languages assign gender to words, I think, not objects. A car in German can be "der Wagen", "die Karre" or "das Auto". There may be languages that assign genders to objects. Perhaps Dyirbal, which Lakoff refers to in "Women, fire and dangerous things"? I'm not familiar with any such language so I can't say.

extasia 3y ago

I think it's being used endearingly, regardless of the person's gender. I see your point though and can understand how it may make you feel as a transwoman. How might one achieve the same effect with different phrasing?

seertaak 3y ago
Heya, I really appreciate you actually listening to what I said, instead of splitting hairs and arguing with me! Empathy is such a lovely quality. To answer your question, I would (did, hihi) drop the 'man'. If you want to remain 'folksy', you could say 'my friend, ...'. Finally, I agree that it was used endearingly - that's why my comment was pretty milquetoast :) I recognize I'm asking you to do something 'extra'. I really appreciate it!
- extasia 3y ago
  Thanks, yeah! Empathy is wonderful:) Might be a regional thing but "my friend" sounds very condescending / patronising to me! I'd personally feel quite upset if somebody began a critique of my behaviour with that. I guess "buddy" or "mate" might work though!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

sam_goody 3y ago

Would you say the same to "Oh, man!", "C'mon man", "man alive", or even (in context) "man overboard"? I don't think these phrases are referring to the subject they are addressing.

seertaak 3y ago
I would drop it where an interlocutor is specifically referenced. So 'oh man' is ok. But c'mon man usually expresses disagreement with a specific person. So while I would certainly say c'mon man to a trans or cis masc (which, if I had any shadow of a doubt, I would determine by querying their pronouns, after sharing mine so as not to inadvertently put them on the spot), I would definitely not say it to a trans or cis fem, and also not to an enby. Someone's life obviously takes priority over gender sensitivity :) Again, I realize it's a bit of (cognitive) work, and takes some getting used to. But this is hacker news - a certain intellectual pedigree is assumed.

ninesnines 3y ago

an 'Oi' can also work wonders! :)

pyyyt 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

tailspin2019 3y ago

This was such a brilliantly polite way to make this point! (And I’m not piling on to the parent because I’m certain I make similar missteps with language sometimes)

porkbeer 3y ago

Oh man is something I say to all sexes. Your comment just seems to be policing language with no point. This kinda stuff hurts your cause, which I wholly support.

seertaak 3y ago
> policing language with no point The point is to avoid a situation where a (usually cis) person inadvertently invalidates a trans person's gender identity. > This kinda stuff hurts your cause So iiuc, what you're saying is, asking to use language that respects someone's gender identity hurts the cause of respecting people's gender identity.
- pyyyt 3y ago
  [flagged]

muzani 3y ago

I think at this point it's just best to assume that "dude", "man", and "bro/bruh" in slang are just gender neutral. There seems to be something about the English language where people think gendered language relates to gender. But in other languages, a table or a bridge may have a gender. A cat may be referred to as a she, despite its physical sex or gender identity.

2143 3y ago
> There seems to be something about the English language where people think gendered language relates to gender. This. Sometimes when people talk about using gender-neutral terms, I wonder how it would work in other languages. As you said, for some languages there is a gender for inanimate objects. In Arabic for example, apparently everything is either feminine or masculine. All countries are feminine, table is masculine, and chair is feminine [1], book is masculine, and car is feminine [2]. Other languages such as French, Russian, and Spanish also seems to assign genders to objects. The Sanskrit language on the other hand seems designed with feminine, masculine, and neuter, but some objects have a non-neuter gender anyway. Quoting from [3] (on Sanskrit): > "Fruit" is neuter, but "tree" is masculine! "City" is neuter, but "village" is masculine! "Army" and "knowledge" are feminine, but "action" is neuter! In truth, most nouns take a certain gender by default, and we cannot guess a noun's gender just by looking at a noun's meaning. [1] https://blogs.transparent.com/arabic/noun-gender-in-arabic/ https://blogs.transparent.com/arabic/noun-gender-in-arabic/ [2] https://openbooks.lib.msu.edu/arb101/chapter/vocabulary-and-grammar-2/ https://openbooks.lib.msu.edu/arb101/chapter/vocabulary-and-... [3] https://www.learnsanskrit.org/start/nouns/ https://www.learnsanskrit.org/start/nouns/
- bloak 3y ago
  > Other languages such as French, Russian, and Spanish also seems to assign genders to objects. Those languages assign gender to words, I think, not objects. A car in German can be "der Wagen", "die Karre" or "das Auto". There may be languages that assign genders to objects. Perhaps Dyirbal, which Lakoff refers to in "Women, fire and dangerous things"? I'm not familiar with any such language so I can't say.