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> It feels like everyone is now choosing its side. You can’t stay in the middle anymore. You are either dedicating all your CPU cycles to run JavaScript trackin

> It feels like everyone is now choosing its side. You can’t stay in the middle anymore. You are either dedicating all your CPU cycles to run JavaScript tracking you or walking away from the big monopolies. You are either being paid to build huge advertising billboards on top of yet another framework or you are handcrafting HTML. Is that happening? I feel like there's a ton of middle ground, and it's only ever expanding. My personal website isn't a huge JavaScript app tracking my visitors, but I wouldn't really call it handcrafted HTML. I'm involved with a bunch of communities that aren't overly corporatized but don't take a big principled stand against it either. I prefer Maggie Appleton's diagram of the web [1]. The click-obsessed corporations are what she calls the "dark forest of the clear web". But below that there are email newsletters and RSS feeds, there are personal blogs and digital gardens, there are communities run on Discord and Slack. [1] https://maggieappleton.com/ai-dark-forest https://maggieappleton.com/ai-dark-forest

chomp 3y ago
Well, her analogy is more for protected areas where you can hide from lifeless, aggresively public areas and where you can consume (presumably) more authentic content. It doesn't work well in this case for e.g. "cozy web" because places like Snapchat are definitely harvesting your interactions. Whatsapp is literally Facebook. The author of this article is more ranting about the "commercial web" in this case. They don't seem to have the same level of appreciation for some of the corporations that Maggie does.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  That’s why I feel like the author is trying to force a square peg into a round hole. WhatsApp is literally Facebook, but all my messages are end-to-end encrypted; I don’t feel like they’re tracking me the same way I do on Instagram. Meanwhile, plenty of people’s blogs have all sorts of nasty tracking shit. People love trying to fit things into dichotomies, but reality is always a lot messier.
  - rakoo 3y ago
    Whatsapp doesn't know what you're talking about, but facebook stills increases its power and presence if you use it
  - palata 3y ago
    > I don’t feel like they’re tracking me the same way I do on Instagram. They care mostly about the metadata, not so much about the content of your messages. They know who you write to, when you write to them, when you check the app (which for many people basically means when they wake up and when they go to bed), they have your whole list of contacts. They are really tracking you.
    - gochi 3y ago
      None of that is metadata. It is just the data.
      - palata 3y ago
        When we talk about "metadata", in the context of a messenger like Whatsapp, it refers to the data (metadata is data) around the actual "payload" (which is the e2ee message). Yes, all of that is metadata.
        godshatter 3y ago
        And, of course, it all becomes "Meta data" in the end.
    - jakelazaroff 3y ago
      I mean, they do care about the data. The reason they can afford to not collect it from WhatsApp is that they can correlate the metadata with the data they collect from Facebook and Instagram. You’re absolutely right that they’re tracking you either way, of course.
  - Lio 3y ago
    If it’s a Meta client on either end doing the decryption does end-to-end encryption really protect you from intrusive tracking? Only Meta know if they’re using that information for sure. Their track record on abusing things like 2 factor phone numbers for snooping isn’t great though.
Kovah 3y ago
I thought that there must be a middle ground after reading that part, too. But we, the people who know, run and support that cozy web, are actually a minority compared to the mass of internet users. It's not a good comparison, but my family and friends know absolutely nothing about all the things that make up the cozy web. Dozens of people and literally nobody knows what RSS, Mastodon or blogs are. When asked about privacy, nobody cares. Nobody except my brother uses ad blockers. Just a few examples. From my experience and what I know about web users in general, this seem to scale to the whole internet. Like 90% of the people know nothing about "our cozy web" and don't care about anything else than the commercial web.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  I don’t think I understand what you’re getting at. Like, yeah, the “cozy web” is fairly marginal, but the “tech-savvy” web the article discusses is even more so.
- gochi 3y ago
  I have a lot of thoughts about this, most glaringly because we tend to use our perspective of social media to paint our idea of others, when in reality social media in general still only captivates around 55% of the general population. It's important to keep this scale in mind, to prevent us from giving up hope and claiming nobody cares. We often keep the cozy web secretive due to eternal september and also underfunded. You can see how these loop into each other very easily. Can't fund a better solution when we keep trying to keep it a secret. We're also very bad at framing things. So often I'll observe what should have been a slam dunk: convey why privacy matters and easy alternatives they can use/ways to keep themselves safer, yet they wind up just convincing the person why they should stick within the misleading warm glow of the commercial web trap. Happens so often! A complete lack of empathy, just scoffing and dismissal. I say all of this to say, we can do better. We have ample opportunity, we need to stop squandering it and indirectly killing the cozy web along with it.
  - Kovah 3y ago
    To be fair, the claim that 90% of the people don't care about that is a bit exaggerated, but I think it points into the right direction. I'm absolutely with you. I would love that the web becomes what it once was. A place where people care about people, instead of just money. And our best bet would be to show our lovely relatives and friends that there are websites out there where they don't have to click through huge cookie banners, being constantly forced to download apps or whatever, or having 50%+ of the screen occupied by ads. And not to forget that their privacy is being respected. Yes, we can do better.

chomp 3y ago

Well, her analogy is more for protected areas where you can hide from lifeless, aggresively public areas and where you can consume (presumably) more authentic content. It doesn't work well in this case for e.g. "cozy web" because places like Snapchat are definitely harvesting your interactions. Whatsapp is literally Facebook. The author of this article is more ranting about the "commercial web" in this case. They don't seem to have the same level of appreciation for some of the corporations that Maggie does.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
That’s why I feel like the author is trying to force a square peg into a round hole. WhatsApp is literally Facebook, but all my messages are end-to-end encrypted; I don’t feel like they’re tracking me the same way I do on Instagram. Meanwhile, plenty of people’s blogs have all sorts of nasty tracking shit. People love trying to fit things into dichotomies, but reality is always a lot messier.
- rakoo 3y ago
  Whatsapp doesn't know what you're talking about, but facebook stills increases its power and presence if you use it
- palata 3y ago
  > I don’t feel like they’re tracking me the same way I do on Instagram. They care mostly about the metadata, not so much about the content of your messages. They know who you write to, when you write to them, when you check the app (which for many people basically means when they wake up and when they go to bed), they have your whole list of contacts. They are really tracking you.
  - gochi 3y ago
    None of that is metadata. It is just the data.
    - palata 3y ago
      When we talk about "metadata", in the context of a messenger like Whatsapp, it refers to the data (metadata is data) around the actual "payload" (which is the e2ee message). Yes, all of that is metadata.
      - godshatter 3y ago
        And, of course, it all becomes "Meta data" in the end.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    I mean, they do care about the data. The reason they can afford to not collect it from WhatsApp is that they can correlate the metadata with the data they collect from Facebook and Instagram. You’re absolutely right that they’re tracking you either way, of course.
- Lio 3y ago
  If it’s a Meta client on either end doing the decryption does end-to-end encryption really protect you from intrusive tracking? Only Meta know if they’re using that information for sure. Their track record on abusing things like 2 factor phone numbers for snooping isn’t great though.

Kovah 3y ago

I thought that there must be a middle ground after reading that part, too. But we, the people who know, run and support that cozy web, are actually a minority compared to the mass of internet users. It's not a good comparison, but my family and friends know absolutely nothing about all the things that make up the cozy web. Dozens of people and literally nobody knows what RSS, Mastodon or blogs are. When asked about privacy, nobody cares. Nobody except my brother uses ad blockers. Just a few examples. From my experience and what I know about web users in general, this seem to scale to the whole internet. Like 90% of the people know nothing about "our cozy web" and don't care about anything else than the commercial web.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
I don’t think I understand what you’re getting at. Like, yeah, the “cozy web” is fairly marginal, but the “tech-savvy” web the article discusses is even more so.
gochi 3y ago
I have a lot of thoughts about this, most glaringly because we tend to use our perspective of social media to paint our idea of others, when in reality social media in general still only captivates around 55% of the general population. It's important to keep this scale in mind, to prevent us from giving up hope and claiming nobody cares. We often keep the cozy web secretive due to eternal september and also underfunded. You can see how these loop into each other very easily. Can't fund a better solution when we keep trying to keep it a secret. We're also very bad at framing things. So often I'll observe what should have been a slam dunk: convey why privacy matters and easy alternatives they can use/ways to keep themselves safer, yet they wind up just convincing the person why they should stick within the misleading warm glow of the commercial web trap. Happens so often! A complete lack of empathy, just scoffing and dismissal. I say all of this to say, we can do better. We have ample opportunity, we need to stop squandering it and indirectly killing the cozy web along with it.
- Kovah 3y ago
  To be fair, the claim that 90% of the people don't care about that is a bit exaggerated, but I think it points into the right direction. I'm absolutely with you. I would love that the web becomes what it once was. A place where people care about people, instead of just money. And our best bet would be to show our lovely relatives and friends that there are websites out there where they don't have to click through huge cookie banners, being constantly forced to download apps or whatever, or having 50%+ of the screen occupied by ads. And not to forget that their privacy is being respected. Yes, we can do better.