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55k on average is ignoring the entry cost of a model 3 (especially with incentives) - also average is just a bad metric for affordability. An extreme example:

55k on average is ignoring the entry cost of a model 3 (especially with incentives) - also average is just a bad metric for affordability. An extreme example: https://electrek.co/2023/07/24/brand-new-tesla-model-3-less-than-14000-california/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/24/brand-new-tesla-model-3-less-... That's also an outlier, but less than 30k isn't which makes this post somewhat misleading (at best). The Model Y was also the top selling vehicle globally across all categories for Q1 2023: https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/26/23738581/tesla-model-y-ev-record-world-bestselling-car-electric https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/26/23738581/tesla-model-y-ev... and in 2022 was the best selling car in the US: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-y-2022-best-selling-top-10/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-y-2022-best-selling-to... Ford's cars are probably too expensive because they ignored the EV market for a decade and it takes time to scale up production and reduce costs. > "The big problem for EVs from a price standpoint is that the whole industry has decided that the only way to cater to American tastes is to make their EV fleet out of trucks and SUVs, eliminating the economical sedans that might be affordable." I'd guess this is because Ford can't profitably make an affordable sedan (they can't do so without losing a lot of money) so they need to make a more expensive vehicle with better margins, Tesla did this too of course - they just had a decade head start while the legacy manufacturers did nothing.

ThatGeoGuy 3y ago
> That's also an outlier, but less than 30k isn't which makes this post somewhat misleading (at best). I don't disagree that this _isn't_ misleading in a way but it's also important to consider that most EVs are subject to what you said right after: > Ford's cars are probably too expensive because they ignored the EV market for a decade and it takes time to scale up production and reduce costs. Notably that Tesla still isn't at a scale of production where walking off the lot with a < $30k vehicle is possible! There usually isn't a lot to walk off of, but its rare that the base model will be available at all! Most of the cars they are producing are not the base package, and likely will never be. The thing about supply chains here is that the "base model" is a much smaller percentage of actual manufacturing. Most of the time if a manufacturer were to produce 1M units a year, less than 30% will be the very base model. I'm not sure there are clear numbers published anywhere, but you can bet that while the "base model" might seem affordable you're unlikely to find it due to the same supply chain constraints — Tesla would much rather up-sell you to some package above the base model and availability is restricted as-is, so which customers do you think they'll prioritize? Tesla isn't even producing millions of units yet (I think last year was just over 600k?), and this is just a drop in the bucket in the number of cars purchased each year. > I'd guess this is because Ford can't profitably make an affordable sedan (they can't do so without losing a lot of money) so they need to make a more expensive vehicle with better margins, Tesla did this too of course - they just had a decade head start while the legacy manufacturers did nothing. They don't "need" to make larger vehicles with better margins, they just prefer to have better margins. A lot of this is a downstream effect of CAFE exemptions on "light trucks," which applies to both SUVs and modern pick-up trucks. I guess my disagreement here isn't that they "can't" make sedans unless you're defining "can't" in terms of "what the shareholders said." We can absolutely regulate these things and it would probably be beneficial to do so. As for why Tesla isn't making massive trucks? EV physics (weight of batteries vs. amount of energy to move said weight) somewhat preclude this, but counterpoint there is that Tesla is making a truck and wants to be on top of that market. Sedans are in a weird space with EVs since the added weight kind of puts you in a range<->weight arms race. While most people probably don't need as much range as they think they do, you end up picking between the atrocious Hummer EV or a Model 3 (which is still very large for most of the trips you'd take with a sedan!!!).
- foobarian 3y ago
  Well, prices aside, there currently is no Ford SUV. I've been shopping for an EV but the current offerings still don't replace my ancient Ford Escape. Still waiting for the electric version...
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    From what I understand (and have seen, around here), the new electric "Mustang" is actually a crossover SUV. Note the URL hierarchy. https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/ https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/
    - foobarian 3y ago
      Yes, as are most other big brand EVs like Ioniq, Kia's line, etc. But they are still smaller than Escape, not sure if it's a design trend or what. It doesn't seem like there is any inherent constraint in the shape unless it's for air resistance reasons.
    - Tagbert 3y ago
      Crossover, yet, but it hardly qualifies as an SUV. Its overall profile is closer to a medium size sedan with a hatchback. What was once called a 5-door. If the hatch were more vertical it would be closer to traditional station wagons. Yes, Ford markets it as an SUV because that terms appeals to a wider market and most people don’t know what a crossover is.
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      a website hierarchy means little; that could be a hack to reuse the existing layouts.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  You can't walk off the lot with any Tesla, so Tesla has much less influence on what percentage of its cars are the base model than other brands. You order online so there's no salesman standing over you talking you into unneeded upgrades. For high-demand products Tesla will offer a better expected delivery date for more expensive vehicles, but Tesla's supply and demand are in balance now and you can get base model deliveries within a couple of weeks.
manuelabeledo 3y ago
> ... also average is just a bad metric for affordability It is definitely better than the outlier you provided as an example. I don't drive a Mercedes-Benz because, on average, any of their models are more expensive than the one I own. The Model Y numbers are misleading. If we consult the source material [0], it clearly states: > ... the Tesla Model Y was the most registered new passenger car of March and Q1 2023 Which is not the same as units sold, but units delivered, i.e. one cannot register a car before receiving it. Tesla has built up a massive order backlog until quite recently [1], so it wouldn't surprise me if these deliveries are for orders placed back in 2022. [0] https://www.jato.com/tesla-model-y-becomes-europes-best-selling-car-for-q1-2023/ https://www.jato.com/tesla-model-y-becomes-europes-best-sell... [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/27/teslas-order-backlog-has-dropped-massively-in-2023-why-is-that/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/27/teslas-order-backlog-ha...
_ea1k 3y ago
I agree with you. TBH, 55k is likely also less than the current average selling price of a new F-150. And the F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the US, and has been for a long time. I read an article (you can probably guess the major media source) that said EVs were expensive because the ASP of a new EV is >$55k, while a compact ICE is only ~25k. Of course comparing the average across all EVs, including $80k trucks to the price of Civic-class vehicles makes no sense.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  Also, let's not forget that this situation is what American shareholders "say" they want: neither GM nor Ford today has a "compact ICE" on sale for ~$25k (nor anywhere near that). The two examples commonly given right now, Civic and Corolla, are both Japanese imports. A lot of these "EVs are not affordable" posts really under the surface are just as much "American car companies are too expensive" and blaming that on EVs is missing what's really going on. (Jalopnik here makes an okay case for one of the reasons why this is happening that American car companies are pricing themselves out of their own market.) It's why I think the US market is ripe for disruption (thanks, short-sighted GM and Ford shareholders) and one of the importers is going to capitalize it. In my understanding it may be a race between the Korean and Chinese companies on who will be the fastest to market a bunch of cheap EV sedan models in the US. (It is sad that I can't imagine right now GM or Ford making a "hail mary pass" around their own "activist" shareholders. GM proved with the Bolt that they have a lot of the raw components to do a cheap sedan, and likely when the Bolt restarts it will be their cheapest car across their portfolio, just still not a "compact" sedan. Both have to keep answering to their shareholders and a lot of their shareholders are dealers that like high margins and hate sedans.)
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    I think that is definitely happening, but it might just be Tesla that does it. Their next wave of products is less than two years away and at least one of the products is clearly focused on cost. GM seems to have a similar plan for the Bolt, but it is completely possible that they will mess it up again.

ThatGeoGuy 3y ago

> That's also an outlier, but less than 30k isn't which makes this post somewhat misleading (at best). I don't disagree that this _isn't_ misleading in a way but it's also important to consider that most EVs are subject to what you said right after: > Ford's cars are probably too expensive because they ignored the EV market for a decade and it takes time to scale up production and reduce costs. Notably that Tesla still isn't at a scale of production where walking off the lot with a < $30k vehicle is possible! There usually isn't a lot to walk off of, but its rare that the base model will be available at all! Most of the cars they are producing are not the base package, and likely will never be. The thing about supply chains here is that the "base model" is a much smaller percentage of actual manufacturing. Most of the time if a manufacturer were to produce 1M units a year, less than 30% will be the very base model. I'm not sure there are clear numbers published anywhere, but you can bet that while the "base model" might seem affordable you're unlikely to find it due to the same supply chain constraints — Tesla would much rather up-sell you to some package above the base model and availability is restricted as-is, so which customers do you think they'll prioritize? Tesla isn't even producing millions of units yet (I think last year was just over 600k?), and this is just a drop in the bucket in the number of cars purchased each year. > I'd guess this is because Ford can't profitably make an affordable sedan (they can't do so without losing a lot of money) so they need to make a more expensive vehicle with better margins, Tesla did this too of course - they just had a decade head start while the legacy manufacturers did nothing. They don't "need" to make larger vehicles with better margins, they just prefer to have better margins. A lot of this is a downstream effect of CAFE exemptions on "light trucks," which applies to both SUVs and modern pick-up trucks. I guess my disagreement here isn't that they "can't" make sedans unless you're defining "can't" in terms of "what the shareholders said." We can absolutely regulate these things and it would probably be beneficial to do so. As for why Tesla isn't making massive trucks? EV physics (weight of batteries vs. amount of energy to move said weight) somewhat preclude this, but counterpoint there is that Tesla is making a truck and wants to be on top of that market. Sedans are in a weird space with EVs since the added weight kind of puts you in a range<->weight arms race. While most people probably don't need as much range as they think they do, you end up picking between the atrocious Hummer EV or a Model 3 (which is still very large for most of the trips you'd take with a sedan!!!).

foobarian 3y ago
Well, prices aside, there currently is no Ford SUV. I've been shopping for an EV but the current offerings still don't replace my ancient Ford Escape. Still waiting for the electric version...
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  From what I understand (and have seen, around here), the new electric "Mustang" is actually a crossover SUV. Note the URL hierarchy. https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/ https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/
  - foobarian 3y ago
    Yes, as are most other big brand EVs like Ioniq, Kia's line, etc. But they are still smaller than Escape, not sure if it's a design trend or what. It doesn't seem like there is any inherent constraint in the shape unless it's for air resistance reasons.
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    Crossover, yet, but it hardly qualifies as an SUV. Its overall profile is closer to a medium size sedan with a hatchback. What was once called a 5-door. If the hatch were more vertical it would be closer to traditional station wagons. Yes, Ford markets it as an SUV because that terms appeals to a wider market and most people don’t know what a crossover is.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    a website hierarchy means little; that could be a hack to reuse the existing layouts.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
You can't walk off the lot with any Tesla, so Tesla has much less influence on what percentage of its cars are the base model than other brands. You order online so there's no salesman standing over you talking you into unneeded upgrades. For high-demand products Tesla will offer a better expected delivery date for more expensive vehicles, but Tesla's supply and demand are in balance now and you can get base model deliveries within a couple of weeks.

manuelabeledo 3y ago

> ... also average is just a bad metric for affordability It is definitely better than the outlier you provided as an example. I don't drive a Mercedes-Benz because, on average, any of their models are more expensive than the one I own. The Model Y numbers are misleading. If we consult the source material [0], it clearly states: > ... the Tesla Model Y was the most registered new passenger car of March and Q1 2023 Which is not the same as units sold, but units delivered, i.e. one cannot register a car before receiving it. Tesla has built up a massive order backlog until quite recently [1], so it wouldn't surprise me if these deliveries are for orders placed back in 2022. [0] https://www.jato.com/tesla-model-y-becomes-europes-best-selling-car-for-q1-2023/ https://www.jato.com/tesla-model-y-becomes-europes-best-sell... [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/27/teslas-order-backlog-has-dropped-massively-in-2023-why-is-that/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/27/teslas-order-backlog-ha...

_ea1k 3y ago

I agree with you. TBH, 55k is likely also less than the current average selling price of a new F-150. And the F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the US, and has been for a long time. I read an article (you can probably guess the major media source) that said EVs were expensive because the ASP of a new EV is >$55k, while a compact ICE is only ~25k. Of course comparing the average across all EVs, including $80k trucks to the price of Civic-class vehicles makes no sense.

WorldMaker 3y ago
Also, let's not forget that this situation is what American shareholders "say" they want: neither GM nor Ford today has a "compact ICE" on sale for ~$25k (nor anywhere near that). The two examples commonly given right now, Civic and Corolla, are both Japanese imports. A lot of these "EVs are not affordable" posts really under the surface are just as much "American car companies are too expensive" and blaming that on EVs is missing what's really going on. (Jalopnik here makes an okay case for one of the reasons why this is happening that American car companies are pricing themselves out of their own market.) It's why I think the US market is ripe for disruption (thanks, short-sighted GM and Ford shareholders) and one of the importers is going to capitalize it. In my understanding it may be a race between the Korean and Chinese companies on who will be the fastest to market a bunch of cheap EV sedan models in the US. (It is sad that I can't imagine right now GM or Ford making a "hail mary pass" around their own "activist" shareholders. GM proved with the Bolt that they have a lot of the raw components to do a cheap sedan, and likely when the Bolt restarts it will be their cheapest car across their portfolio, just still not a "compact" sedan. Both have to keep answering to their shareholders and a lot of their shareholders are dealers that like high margins and hate sedans.)
- _ea1k 3y ago
  I think that is definitely happening, but it might just be Tesla that does it. Their next wave of products is less than two years away and at least one of the products is clearly focused on cost. GM seems to have a similar plan for the Bolt, but it is completely possible that they will mess it up again.