6 ms·

I reclaim 1.5 hours a day from work from home, so a mandated back to work would actually represent a 6 point pay cut on the day assuming I thought that through

by wredue 3y ago

I reclaim 1.5 hours a day from work from home, so a mandated back to work would actually represent a 6 point pay cut on the day assuming I thought that through properly. I don’t even have an egregious commute compared to others. Never mind that all of a sudden I no longer need before and after daycare. I have a home gym and can acceptably exercise at lunch. I don’t have peer pressures to go out for lunch all the time to eat. Etc. The amount of money changes just from working from home is huge. Never mind that I get more done, and have way fewer interruptions. This whole “get back to the office” is transparently a middle management “I’m still relevant!” Move.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
Ed Zitron wrote about it a lot in his newsletter a while back and I think had some really excellent insights about it. Especially these three factors: - Executives work in a way that genuinely does probably reward or even require in person interaction. A lot of their job is "intangible" human connection-building stuff with other executives, shareholders, investors, manufacturers, etc. And because of the way executives are selected, a lot of these people haven't worked a "normal" job in decades or sometimes ever. They mistakenly think everyone else's work is, or should be, more like theirs is. - Ego shit: from executive down to middle management a significant amount of the "reward" of the job is prestige, in the form of authority and control over other workers. Seeing "their" workers all lined up in the office is a visceral experience of this prestige and they don't want to give it up. - Some significant fraction of middle management is genuinely not necessary or beneficial, but is essentially skimmed off the productivity of the lower workers and presented upwards as managerial competence. And especially, this isn't evenly distributed: maybe all managers do it a little, inadvertently or through bureaucratic structure, but some managers are almost exclusively this. Their actual career is at stake because it makes clear who is doing the work, and prevents them from intercepting it to take credit. And then finally my own view on it is exposed in the disgusting euphemism "labor discipline." White collar pay went up during the pandemic. WFH is incredibly better for the quality of life of many workers, with few or no downsides. We are realizing we don't have to live and work the way we have been, things can be better for us at no one's expense. We are getting uppity and need to be reminded who is really in control of our lives.
- sam0x17 3y ago
  > A lot of their job is "intangible" I think for many executives it's so "intangible" as to be worthless bordering on detrimental ;)
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    I agree but that's a stronger claim that's more difficult to defend. In terms of "why are they pushing return to office" it's not that relevant. Assuming they are doing anything by doing this, they need to be in person to do it. I'm with you though I don't think very much of value is taking place up there.
    - sam0x17 3y ago
      Well the fact that they do nothing becomes a lot more obvious when they aren't breathing down people's necks in the office.
- pjc50 3y ago
  > a significant amount of the "reward" of the job is prestige, in the form of authority and control over other workers This is definitely a real phenomenon. "Subordination", the product of having subordinates, is a sort of hidden compensation to some people. > And then finally my own view on it is exposed in the disgusting euphemism "labor discipline." White collar pay went up during the pandemic. WFH is incredibly better for the quality of life of many workers, with few or no downsides. We are realizing we don't have to live and work the way we have been, things can be better for us at no one's expense. We are getting uppity and need to be reminded who is really in control of our lives. Amen. There's a certain type of boss who thinks that employee happiness is a sign they're not being whipped enough, and that whipping them will increase productivity; these people also treat it as an axiom, and are immune to evidence about productivity.
- Lutger 3y ago
  There are also other jobs which truly benefit from in-person interactions, for example sales people basically are basically fueled by it. And in my experience there is a minority of people, also developers, who really enjoy working at the office, or don't do well at home. Good managers would be busy figuring out what their people actually need to thrive and know that it is not the same for everybody. In this case, I really hope forward thinking companies will destroy the competition and scoop up all the displeased talent that is forced to return to the office. Insofar as we have a free market, the problem will then sort itself out anyway, even though the road to get there might be ugly.
commandlinefan 3y ago
> transparently a middle management “I’m still relevant!” Which makes one wonder who the people who kept posting on here how much they missed the office and wished we'd go back to the office during the pandemic actually were.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  A lot of opinions on here would make more sense if we could look at titles and salary of posters. So much motivated reasoning going on.
- CaptainNegative 3y ago
  I don't like working from home, but I hate mandated RTO because of all the antisocial behavior people bring into the office from their WFH days (loud meetings at their desks, brushing their teeth at their desks, Das keyboards, etc.).
  - bluefishinit 3y ago
    Those have nothing to do with WFH, they're regular office behavior and one well known reason for why many people hate going to the office.
    - CaptainNegative 3y ago
      Those definitely existed in the past, but there's been a dramatic uptick of terrible office etiquette in my current situation relative to pre-pandemic times, even though I'm in the same building working for the same company. I now expect any rando who sits next to me to enter a meeting.
- spacemadness 3y ago
  Yes, it seems weird so many HN folks seemed to pine for the office when the statistics show a different picture.
  - bluefishinit 3y ago
kcplate 3y ago
I say this on here every time this topic comes up and get downvoted to hell because no one likes to hear it, but I don’t care because people need to hear it and I m gonna preach it. Everyone who complains about RTO always focuses on how it affects them. If you want to argue from a position of strength with your company on why WFH is better, stop focusing on it’s benefits to you and more on its benefits to your company. Your arguments about “me” will always fall on deaf ears at your company. They don’t care about “me”, they care about “us”.
- gotorazor 3y ago
  Mostly because it is a thing that affects them (the employees). The only problems a company faces from RTO is employee dissatisfaction. Same as saying that you need to argue why a pay raise is good for your company. I mean, it mostly doesn't. All it does is that it makes the employees happier.
  - kcplate 3y ago
    Sure, but unlike a requested comp change which is understood to be a employer/employee individual negotiation, RTO tends to be decided on an employer/employees basis. The company doesn’t view it on an individual employee level so individual employee arguments are the wrong approach when selling WFH over a RTO directive.

by wredue 3y ago

giraffe_lady 3y ago

Ed Zitron wrote about it a lot in his newsletter a while back and I think had some really excellent insights about it. Especially these three factors: - Executives work in a way that genuinely does probably reward or even require in person interaction. A lot of their job is "intangible" human connection-building stuff with other executives, shareholders, investors, manufacturers, etc. And because of the way executives are selected, a lot of these people haven't worked a "normal" job in decades or sometimes ever. They mistakenly think everyone else's work is, or should be, more like theirs is. - Ego shit: from executive down to middle management a significant amount of the "reward" of the job is prestige, in the form of authority and control over other workers. Seeing "their" workers all lined up in the office is a visceral experience of this prestige and they don't want to give it up. - Some significant fraction of middle management is genuinely not necessary or beneficial, but is essentially skimmed off the productivity of the lower workers and presented upwards as managerial competence. And especially, this isn't evenly distributed: maybe all managers do it a little, inadvertently or through bureaucratic structure, but some managers are almost exclusively this. Their actual career is at stake because it makes clear who is doing the work, and prevents them from intercepting it to take credit. And then finally my own view on it is exposed in the disgusting euphemism "labor discipline." White collar pay went up during the pandemic. WFH is incredibly better for the quality of life of many workers, with few or no downsides. We are realizing we don't have to live and work the way we have been, things can be better for us at no one's expense. We are getting uppity and need to be reminded who is really in control of our lives.

sam0x17 3y ago
> A lot of their job is "intangible" I think for many executives it's so "intangible" as to be worthless bordering on detrimental ;)
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  I agree but that's a stronger claim that's more difficult to defend. In terms of "why are they pushing return to office" it's not that relevant. Assuming they are doing anything by doing this, they need to be in person to do it. I'm with you though I don't think very much of value is taking place up there.
  - sam0x17 3y ago
    Well the fact that they do nothing becomes a lot more obvious when they aren't breathing down people's necks in the office.
pjc50 3y ago
> a significant amount of the "reward" of the job is prestige, in the form of authority and control over other workers This is definitely a real phenomenon. "Subordination", the product of having subordinates, is a sort of hidden compensation to some people. > And then finally my own view on it is exposed in the disgusting euphemism "labor discipline." White collar pay went up during the pandemic. WFH is incredibly better for the quality of life of many workers, with few or no downsides. We are realizing we don't have to live and work the way we have been, things can be better for us at no one's expense. We are getting uppity and need to be reminded who is really in control of our lives. Amen. There's a certain type of boss who thinks that employee happiness is a sign they're not being whipped enough, and that whipping them will increase productivity; these people also treat it as an axiom, and are immune to evidence about productivity.
Lutger 3y ago
There are also other jobs which truly benefit from in-person interactions, for example sales people basically are basically fueled by it. And in my experience there is a minority of people, also developers, who really enjoy working at the office, or don't do well at home. Good managers would be busy figuring out what their people actually need to thrive and know that it is not the same for everybody. In this case, I really hope forward thinking companies will destroy the competition and scoop up all the displeased talent that is forced to return to the office. Insofar as we have a free market, the problem will then sort itself out anyway, even though the road to get there might be ugly.

commandlinefan 3y ago

> transparently a middle management “I’m still relevant!” Which makes one wonder who the people who kept posting on here how much they missed the office and wished we'd go back to the office during the pandemic actually were.

ModernMech 3y ago
A lot of opinions on here would make more sense if we could look at titles and salary of posters. So much motivated reasoning going on.
CaptainNegative 3y ago
I don't like working from home, but I hate mandated RTO because of all the antisocial behavior people bring into the office from their WFH days (loud meetings at their desks, brushing their teeth at their desks, Das keyboards, etc.).
- bluefishinit 3y ago
  Those have nothing to do with WFH, they're regular office behavior and one well known reason for why many people hate going to the office.
  - CaptainNegative 3y ago
    Those definitely existed in the past, but there's been a dramatic uptick of terrible office etiquette in my current situation relative to pre-pandemic times, even though I'm in the same building working for the same company. I now expect any rando who sits next to me to enter a meeting.
spacemadness 3y ago
Yes, it seems weird so many HN folks seemed to pine for the office when the statistics show a different picture.
- bluefishinit 3y ago

kcplate 3y ago

I say this on here every time this topic comes up and get downvoted to hell because no one likes to hear it, but I don’t care because people need to hear it and I m gonna preach it. Everyone who complains about RTO always focuses on how it affects them. If you want to argue from a position of strength with your company on why WFH is better, stop focusing on it’s benefits to you and more on its benefits to your company. Your arguments about “me” will always fall on deaf ears at your company. They don’t care about “me”, they care about “us”.

gotorazor 3y ago
Mostly because it is a thing that affects them (the employees). The only problems a company faces from RTO is employee dissatisfaction. Same as saying that you need to argue why a pay raise is good for your company. I mean, it mostly doesn't. All it does is that it makes the employees happier.
- kcplate 3y ago
  Sure, but unlike a requested comp change which is understood to be a employer/employee individual negotiation, RTO tends to be decided on an employer/employees basis. The company doesn’t view it on an individual employee level so individual employee arguments are the wrong approach when selling WFH over a RTO directive.