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How is it to societies benefit if someone doesn't buy a car? It could be if someone drives less, but if they replace a car with a car driven by another person,

by HWR_14 3y ago

How is it to societies benefit if someone doesn't buy a car? It could be if someone drives less, but if they replace a car with a car driven by another person, it seems to be even worse.

diebeforei485 3y ago
Having a car means you travel more. If enough people don't have cars, it strengthens local economies and smaller businesses instead of everyone driving to Walmart at the edge of town.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  I can imagine this working fine in a world of families where one person works and the other stays at home, as there's time to walk to the shops once a day for different things, to avoid carrying a week's worth of shopping by hand. In a world where both have to have full-time jobs, it's harder to see how this would work. And I grew up in a time where we still had a local butcher and baker (candlesticks were sadly out of fashion), and the way we did it was a) live really close to them, and b) not get everything for the week on the same shop.
  - diebeforei485 3y ago
    It doesn't have to be specialist shops like butchers and bakers. I have three grocery stores within a 10-minute walk that all manage to sell everything I need, from shampoo to fresh produce. Buying a week's worth of groceries of any kind is very weird to me. The only place where I have ever bought that much is at Costco, and only because they force you to buy in huge quantities (except for electronics and standard sized individual bottles of wine and liquor). I cancelled my membership when I realized how much of a hassle it is to spend my weekend time going out there and waiting in long checkout lines vs just stopping by my local grocery store on the way back from work twice a week.
carlosjobim 3y ago
That car has to be manufactured. Cars just don't appear out of thin air like the food at your supermarket.
throwaway290 3y ago
If you don't buy a car you don't need parking space and more likely to use public transport (most beneficial), allows better urban planning. And if everyone buys cars manufacturing is more damaging to the environment
- jandrese 3y ago
  If the same number of car miles are being taken then it is a wash on the manufacturing side, but you are totally correct that car parking is a terrible waste of space. Of course the biggest blight is the roads themselves and car sharing does little to help that. In fact it may be even worse as the drivers have to make the trip between the fares that wouldn’t exist with privately owned and parked vehicles.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    > Of course the biggest blight is the roads themselves and car sharing does little to help that I did not mention car sharing. I can understand taxis but totally don't get people using car sharing, seems like the worst of public transport and cars. You don't own it, who knows who used it and how (in privacy) and you still have to, well, do the driving yourself? Taxis are better than carsh also because they help offboard people from being used to having to drive so they are more OK using public transport too generally leading to better urban planning > If the same number of car miles are being taken then it is a wash on the manufacturing side Not if some cars do 90% of total miles and others do 10% but still have to be manufactured due to higher demand
    - burnished 3y ago
      Car sharing is great. Sometimes you need to go somewhere for a couple hours and hiring a driver becomes very expensive. Or you need to transport something. And I hate to break it to you but whatever you are imagining happened in these shared cars, the city bus has seen worse. Far worse. And you still get on those so, maybe not a big deal at all.
      - 3y ago
ericd 3y ago
Society doesn't have that car taking up space on the side of a public road all day, for one thing. Less parking, narrower roads, smaller parking lots, things are closer together, things are more walkable, we burn less fossil fuel, people get more exercise, people are healthier, people are happier/more productive.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  That's how a society set up for mostly taxis could be better. But if we get to include the benefits of walkable societies and redoing all existing infrastructure in our arguments, surely going to mass transit is better still? And, unlike repaving all the roads to be narrower, it's something that can be added on top of existing infrastructure.
  - ericd 3y ago
    Yeah, no argument, I'd love more light rail/streetcars. If people are less dependent on personal cars, they'll be more willing to develop toward that pattern with mass transit/small bike/pedestrian roads/etc.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  At the same time, what do you think the taxi is doing in between fares? They drive around and add to congestion, requiring wider roads.
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  I think the main benefit is that someone who doesn't own a car isn't particularly inclined to fight for more spending on car-dependent infrastructure. They'll probably be more likely to support more public transit, because using a car feels expensive.
  - ericd 3y ago
    Yeah, definitely. Right now most are still in the "can't imagine not having a car, and want to make sure that that car can take them everywhere" state of mind. If more people walked/could walk, maybe we'd prioritize making places actually nice to walk, instead of super uncomfortable, right next to loud speeding cars. I was looking at our local zoning laws, and it doesn't look like you're allowed to make a non-car-dependent mixed-use development, thanks to density restrictions and parking requirements. Hopefully as sentiment changes, we can change more of those zoning laws.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
It seems like basic arithmetic that the "replacement" car is being "shared" by multiple people.
albedoa 3y ago
How is it to society's benefit if someone doesn't buy a [MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING MACHINE]? It could be if someone [IMAGES MAGNETIC RESONANCE] less, but if they replace a [MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING MACHINE] with a [MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING MACHINE] [OPERATED] by another person, it seems to be even worse.
- Sholmesy 3y ago
  Bit of a facetious response and not in the spirit on HN, but you absolutely nailed the choice of noun with MRI machine, lol. Perfect.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  I didn't know people needed an MRI twice a day to be able to work, or to use an MRI to enjoy a concert or a dinner out. If people need that many MRIs, maybe everyone should get their own!
robertlagrant 3y ago
Taxis are generally more efficient vehicles for town driving; e.g. a Prius. When people own their own car they have to make it work for everything they need it for, so it might be a diesel or petrol car, or larger, or anything else. Replacing that multi-use car with a Prius that's running on electric for half the journey is a good idea.

by HWR_14 3y ago

How is it to societies benefit if someone doesn't buy a car? It could be if someone drives less, but if they replace a car with a car driven by another person, it seems to be even worse.

diebeforei485 3y ago

Having a car means you travel more. If enough people don't have cars, it strengthens local economies and smaller businesses instead of everyone driving to Walmart at the edge of town.

robertlagrant 3y ago
I can imagine this working fine in a world of families where one person works and the other stays at home, as there's time to walk to the shops once a day for different things, to avoid carrying a week's worth of shopping by hand. In a world where both have to have full-time jobs, it's harder to see how this would work. And I grew up in a time where we still had a local butcher and baker (candlesticks were sadly out of fashion), and the way we did it was a) live really close to them, and b) not get everything for the week on the same shop.
- diebeforei485 3y ago
  It doesn't have to be specialist shops like butchers and bakers. I have three grocery stores within a 10-minute walk that all manage to sell everything I need, from shampoo to fresh produce. Buying a week's worth of groceries of any kind is very weird to me. The only place where I have ever bought that much is at Costco, and only because they force you to buy in huge quantities (except for electronics and standard sized individual bottles of wine and liquor). I cancelled my membership when I realized how much of a hassle it is to spend my weekend time going out there and waiting in long checkout lines vs just stopping by my local grocery store on the way back from work twice a week.

carlosjobim 3y ago

That car has to be manufactured. Cars just don't appear out of thin air like the food at your supermarket.

throwaway290 3y ago

If you don't buy a car you don't need parking space and more likely to use public transport (most beneficial), allows better urban planning. And if everyone buys cars manufacturing is more damaging to the environment

jandrese 3y ago
If the same number of car miles are being taken then it is a wash on the manufacturing side, but you are totally correct that car parking is a terrible waste of space. Of course the biggest blight is the roads themselves and car sharing does little to help that. In fact it may be even worse as the drivers have to make the trip between the fares that wouldn’t exist with privately owned and parked vehicles.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  > Of course the biggest blight is the roads themselves and car sharing does little to help that I did not mention car sharing. I can understand taxis but totally don't get people using car sharing, seems like the worst of public transport and cars. You don't own it, who knows who used it and how (in privacy) and you still have to, well, do the driving yourself? Taxis are better than carsh also because they help offboard people from being used to having to drive so they are more OK using public transport too generally leading to better urban planning > If the same number of car miles are being taken then it is a wash on the manufacturing side Not if some cars do 90% of total miles and others do 10% but still have to be manufactured due to higher demand
  - burnished 3y ago
    Car sharing is great. Sometimes you need to go somewhere for a couple hours and hiring a driver becomes very expensive. Or you need to transport something. And I hate to break it to you but whatever you are imagining happened in these shared cars, the city bus has seen worse. Far worse. And you still get on those so, maybe not a big deal at all.
    - 3y ago

ericd 3y ago

Society doesn't have that car taking up space on the side of a public road all day, for one thing. Less parking, narrower roads, smaller parking lots, things are closer together, things are more walkable, we burn less fossil fuel, people get more exercise, people are healthier, people are happier/more productive.

HWR_14 3y ago
That's how a society set up for mostly taxis could be better. But if we get to include the benefits of walkable societies and redoing all existing infrastructure in our arguments, surely going to mass transit is better still? And, unlike repaving all the roads to be narrower, it's something that can be added on top of existing infrastructure.
- ericd 3y ago
  Yeah, no argument, I'd love more light rail/streetcars. If people are less dependent on personal cars, they'll be more willing to develop toward that pattern with mass transit/small bike/pedestrian roads/etc.
bobthepanda 3y ago
At the same time, what do you think the taxi is doing in between fares? They drive around and add to congestion, requiring wider roads.
oatmeal1 3y ago
I think the main benefit is that someone who doesn't own a car isn't particularly inclined to fight for more spending on car-dependent infrastructure. They'll probably be more likely to support more public transit, because using a car feels expensive.
- ericd 3y ago
  Yeah, definitely. Right now most are still in the "can't imagine not having a car, and want to make sure that that car can take them everywhere" state of mind. If more people walked/could walk, maybe we'd prioritize making places actually nice to walk, instead of super uncomfortable, right next to loud speeding cars. I was looking at our local zoning laws, and it doesn't look like you're allowed to make a non-car-dependent mixed-use development, thanks to density restrictions and parking requirements. Hopefully as sentiment changes, we can change more of those zoning laws.

doctorpangloss 3y ago

It seems like basic arithmetic that the "replacement" car is being "shared" by multiple people.

albedoa 3y ago

How is it to society's benefit if someone doesn't buy a [MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING MACHINE]? It could be if someone [IMAGES MAGNETIC RESONANCE] less, but if they replace a [MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING MACHINE] with a [MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING MACHINE] [OPERATED] by another person, it seems to be even worse.

Sholmesy 3y ago
Bit of a facetious response and not in the spirit on HN, but you absolutely nailed the choice of noun with MRI machine, lol. Perfect.
HWR_14 3y ago
I didn't know people needed an MRI twice a day to be able to work, or to use an MRI to enjoy a concert or a dinner out. If people need that many MRIs, maybe everyone should get their own!

robertlagrant 3y ago

Taxis are generally more efficient vehicles for town driving; e.g. a Prius. When people own their own car they have to make it work for everything they need it for, so it might be a diesel or petrol car, or larger, or anything else. Replacing that multi-use car with a Prius that's running on electric for half the journey is a good idea.