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> “It’s cultural,” Turmail said. “Mom doesn’t want her babies to grow up to be construction workers. For the last 40 years, we’ve been preaching a message natio

> “It’s cultural,” Turmail said. “Mom doesn’t want her babies to grow up to be construction workers. For the last 40 years, we’ve been preaching a message nationally that the only path to success in life lies through a four-year college degree in some kind of an office." ... Vankudre said that construction as a career path is not particularly appealing to young people, and until the U.S. government and construction companies find a way to change that belief among the labor force’s newest generations, the shortage will linger. I used to work medical/safety on major construction sites, and I'm not sure it's purely pay, because lots of guys love the overtime (caused in part by fewer men per man-hour of work). The beginning of the proverbial pipeline is drying/has dried up. Good for workers, bad for companies. A google search for "meme about college vs trades" captures the sentiment: "College Kid is $100k in debt for his PhD in Philosophical Basketweaving, is unemployed, and looks down at tradesmen"; "Tradesman got paid for his apprenticeship, owns a house and a brand-new pickup truck, and just disconnected College Kid's utilities for non-payment"

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Are there job listings showing payrates and work schedules to substantiate this?
- bratgpttamer 3y ago
  A search for "traveling construction jobs" will get you at least part of the story, but advertised salaries usually don't include the unplanned-but-essentially-guaranteed overtime. There's also Per Diem rates that aren't technically part of salary/base pay - e.g., $250 per day to cover your travel/hotel/meals. The demurrage clauses in contracts are generally more expensive than paying overtime, even 2x rates, so it happens as the project falls behind, which it almost inevitably does, due to weather, failed drug tests, people walking/getting kicked off the job, etc. Things like large concrete pours or topping off a wind turbine need to be done in one go, which can quickly result in 16, 18, or 20-hour days and/or 7-day work weeks. So, the job might advertise $20-40/hr, but many of these guys are making well over $100k annually.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    >So, the job might advertise $20-40/hr, but many of these guys are making well over $100k annually. This is not mutually exclusive. Both per hour earnings and annual income are relevant measures. $100k annually for working 2,000 hours is a very different quality of life than $100k annually for working 3,000 hours. The other factors that will come into play are working conditions (for example, outdoor temperatures, working in active roadways, etc), working nights, early mornings, weekends, and frequency and distance of travel. But it will all work itself out, even though there may be some pains while supply and demand curves move to find the correct prices.
  - LegitShady 3y ago
    I used to work in a position that had many things like you describe. My per diet was $250, but hotel in the middle of oil field nowhere was $140/night, I couldn’t get breakfast for less than $15, lunch about the same, and any dinner that wasn’t a rotisserie chicken from the grocery store $25. Now you’re at $225/250 of your per diem, you’re covered in concrete, and you get $25 “bonus” for the privilege of living away from home out of back eating whatever you can find in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the smaller contractors would bring in a 5th wheel, break out the bbq after work, and pocket the hotel money to make work better. And maybe they make $100k but they work heavy overtime, away from home, and 3000 hours a year to make it happen. And they still have to spend 12 hours actually doing the physical work to make the job happen. It’s not a glamorous life.
    - bratgpttamer 3y ago
      Yeah, there's definitely lots of variability in both the per diem rates and how people spend it. I'd work 4 weeks on/2 weeks off (and travel some more), which I valued more than being back in my apartment every night. We rented a 3BR for practically nothing and ate out just about every night (food was cheaper there than at home). I basically lived off of the per diem and put the actual salary away for the off-season. Most of the people I worked with, myself included, were young and (more importantly) single and traveling all over the country was a plus. One of the electrical foreman used to work in Antarctica, and I forget what insane amount of money he made there, but I'd definitely have jumped on that even for half the pay. Re: Hourly vs. Annual - I'm speaking more to the fact that it's non-linear, because of the per diem and lots of overtime. I'm not sure I'd call it glamorous, but I'd definitely do it again if I didn't have a family to consider. (My wife used to do commercial fishing, which is perhaps even more un-glamorous, but there's something satisfying about coming home after a few weeks with more money than you know what to do with - at least in your early/mid 20's.)
Shawnj2 3y ago
I feel like these memes completely ignore the fact that being an engineer exists as a career and is basically the trades job but for far more pay and with more thinking involved.
- bratgpttamer 3y ago
  I haven't seen any where College Kid went to become a doctor/lawyer/engineer. They've all referenced "useless" degrees, which I've interpreted broadly as people who get degrees for the sake of having degrees - especially those who look down on people without degrees.
  - Shawnj2 3y ago
    Don’t get me wrong being a gender studies major or something without a clear career path to a well paying job when you leave college is stupid but there is a college version of every trade that does cooler shit and gets paid far more. Why fix planes or cars when you could design them if you have the means to go to college? Obviously not everyone can afford a 4 year college degree but if you can it’s a no brainer.
    - bratgpttamer 3y ago
      I think "cool" here is subjective, and aptitude aside, not everyone can [design|fix] things, because then who will [fix|design] them? I think a lot of people like the hands-on aspect over, say, math, and/or the fact that their job is done when they punch out - they don't have the responsibility that a PE or PM does. Go to work, turn wrench, come home, drink beer, repeat.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

Are there job listings showing payrates and work schedules to substantiate this?

bratgpttamer 3y ago
A search for "traveling construction jobs" will get you at least part of the story, but advertised salaries usually don't include the unplanned-but-essentially-guaranteed overtime. There's also Per Diem rates that aren't technically part of salary/base pay - e.g., $250 per day to cover your travel/hotel/meals. The demurrage clauses in contracts are generally more expensive than paying overtime, even 2x rates, so it happens as the project falls behind, which it almost inevitably does, due to weather, failed drug tests, people walking/getting kicked off the job, etc. Things like large concrete pours or topping off a wind turbine need to be done in one go, which can quickly result in 16, 18, or 20-hour days and/or 7-day work weeks. So, the job might advertise $20-40/hr, but many of these guys are making well over $100k annually.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  >So, the job might advertise $20-40/hr, but many of these guys are making well over $100k annually. This is not mutually exclusive. Both per hour earnings and annual income are relevant measures. $100k annually for working 2,000 hours is a very different quality of life than $100k annually for working 3,000 hours. The other factors that will come into play are working conditions (for example, outdoor temperatures, working in active roadways, etc), working nights, early mornings, weekends, and frequency and distance of travel. But it will all work itself out, even though there may be some pains while supply and demand curves move to find the correct prices.
- LegitShady 3y ago
  I used to work in a position that had many things like you describe. My per diet was $250, but hotel in the middle of oil field nowhere was $140/night, I couldn’t get breakfast for less than $15, lunch about the same, and any dinner that wasn’t a rotisserie chicken from the grocery store $25. Now you’re at $225/250 of your per diem, you’re covered in concrete, and you get $25 “bonus” for the privilege of living away from home out of back eating whatever you can find in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the smaller contractors would bring in a 5th wheel, break out the bbq after work, and pocket the hotel money to make work better. And maybe they make $100k but they work heavy overtime, away from home, and 3000 hours a year to make it happen. And they still have to spend 12 hours actually doing the physical work to make the job happen. It’s not a glamorous life.
  - bratgpttamer 3y ago
    Yeah, there's definitely lots of variability in both the per diem rates and how people spend it. I'd work 4 weeks on/2 weeks off (and travel some more), which I valued more than being back in my apartment every night. We rented a 3BR for practically nothing and ate out just about every night (food was cheaper there than at home). I basically lived off of the per diem and put the actual salary away for the off-season. Most of the people I worked with, myself included, were young and (more importantly) single and traveling all over the country was a plus. One of the electrical foreman used to work in Antarctica, and I forget what insane amount of money he made there, but I'd definitely have jumped on that even for half the pay. Re: Hourly vs. Annual - I'm speaking more to the fact that it's non-linear, because of the per diem and lots of overtime. I'm not sure I'd call it glamorous, but I'd definitely do it again if I didn't have a family to consider. (My wife used to do commercial fishing, which is perhaps even more un-glamorous, but there's something satisfying about coming home after a few weeks with more money than you know what to do with - at least in your early/mid 20's.)

Shawnj2 3y ago

I feel like these memes completely ignore the fact that being an engineer exists as a career and is basically the trades job but for far more pay and with more thinking involved.

bratgpttamer 3y ago
I haven't seen any where College Kid went to become a doctor/lawyer/engineer. They've all referenced "useless" degrees, which I've interpreted broadly as people who get degrees for the sake of having degrees - especially those who look down on people without degrees.
- Shawnj2 3y ago
  Don’t get me wrong being a gender studies major or something without a clear career path to a well paying job when you leave college is stupid but there is a college version of every trade that does cooler shit and gets paid far more. Why fix planes or cars when you could design them if you have the means to go to college? Obviously not everyone can afford a 4 year college degree but if you can it’s a no brainer.
  - bratgpttamer 3y ago
    I think "cool" here is subjective, and aptitude aside, not everyone can [design|fix] things, because then who will [fix|design] them? I think a lot of people like the hands-on aspect over, say, math, and/or the fact that their job is done when they punch out - they don't have the responsibility that a PE or PM does. Go to work, turn wrench, come home, drink beer, repeat.