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I don't know if this is this specific system in DF, but there is a recent video by Game Makers toolkit explaining The Sims AI which is kinda similar regarding o

I don't know if this is this specific system in DF, but there is a recent video by Game Makers toolkit explaining The Sims AI which is kinda similar regarding objetcs and needs, pretty interesting https://youtu.be/9gf2MT-IOsg https://youtu.be/9gf2MT-IOsg

7373737373 3y ago
Thank you! This makes me wonder why there is no open source implementation of/framework for such a mechanic (or why i haven't heard of one) yet - it seems to be the (potential) basis of many games - one other popular game using it is Rimworld. Also, why games like Minecraft have not long implemented such smart and interesting NPCs yet!
- tialaramex 3y ago
  Although Microsoft/ Mojang does still actively work on Minecraft, a large fraction of real input to Minecraft's evolution is driven by the independent (Java) modding community. Today vanilla Minecraft has bees, but for many years modded Minecraft had bees, and in fact it had so many bees that people would routinely "nope out" of bee stuff because "Oh MY GOD. No more fucking bees". Jaded Cat's original Agrarian Skies has custom bees, which I think were pink or purple - and within a year or two everybody was sick enough of bees that they didn't want even the normal ones. As with other creative communities there are some distinct threads, like some people are into very heavily survival focused, up-against-it packs, where e.g. gravity works properly, mobs understand the game rules and will climb up to get you, or set fires, they will upgrade their gear, etc. while people like me prefer ascend-to-godhood type gameplay where you quickly dispense with monsters and become untouchable not far into play. In the latter style there's not a desire for "smart and interesting NPCs", in fact it's often played alone or in small groups, intentionally. In the former style the NPCs are somewhat smart, but they're a threat so if you make them too clever they'll just always kill the players which isn't much fun after a while. I think NPCs with the type of independence of a Dwarf Fortress dwarf wouldn't be attractive to either of the sorts of player I mentioned, it may be that such people just don't play Minecraft. But it's also possible somebody has implemented it and I've never run into it. There are a lot of Minecraft mods. Curseforge lists literally thousands of them, there could be hundred like you describe and I wouldn't have noticed. Packs might typically have a few hundred of those thousands, I might play four or five packs per year, but often the same mods recur because they're so useful or well-liked, like Just Enough Items gets used a lot, so does Refined Storage, but some weird dwarf intelligence mod could easily go under the radar not because people don't like it but because they didn't know it existed. I reckon a lot of people had never really used Compact Machines for example until Compact Claustrophobia took off, and in that the machines are absolutely mandatory and you use them from the first minutes so you have to get very familiar with them.
  - ehnto 3y ago
    Honestly it really was too much fuss about bees, in already very dense modpacks! I'm trying to get this space program off the ground so I can get back to my moonbase damnit. The reactor is melting down, I haven't got time for bees!
    - tialaramex 3y ago
      Most of the space mods can fuck off. So crashy and yet so bland. I did like the one where you can build arbitrary space stations, except its oxygen sealing mechanics are too sketchy so all I ever do is build an open air space station and spend as little time there as possible, wearing a space suit, until I'm immortal and don't need to breathe anyway. Advanced Rocketry maybe? Whereas I rather liked some bee stuff. Maybe not over and over again, but I played Valdan's Sky Bees a while back and I really enjoyed that again, with modern huge bees and so on.
- chmod775 3y ago
  >Thank you! This makes me wonder why there is no open source implementation of/framework for such a mechanic Most likely because actually implementing it is dead-simple, which is a major selling point of this technique. Short of adding it as a building block for non-coders in game engines such as Unreal, there is really no point in trying to prefab it. Most projects will be better served by just coding it in a way that is uniquely tailored to their needs and integrated with their game.
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  The short answer is that Mojang doesn't care about implementing actual, innovative features. The long answer is that the game is in a managed decline. The target audience is small children so anything not targeted to them doesn't get implemented. "Smart NPCs" isn't a feature like that, so there is zero chance of that being included into the game.
- TheRoque 3y ago
  Games experiences are carefully crafted. Minecraft is not a world simulator, or an RPG (I mean, without mods), if you added such features in the base game, it would change the experience dramatically. I'd say that the reason they didn't implement it yet, is simply because it's not the experience they want to give. Never underestimate how hard it is to create the game experience you want. There's a reason why a lot of NPC AI in videogames are dead simple: it's easy to implement, players easily interact with it, without being confused, it follows rules carefully crafted for the game experience, it's easy to debug and test etc. etc. Also, how many games like rimworld, DF exist in 3D ? That's right, none that I know of. Making this kind of AI in a free 3D space becomes a whole other story. I think it works well with 2D minimalistic games, because the player uses its imagination a lot. In 3D you can't really leverage this. Anyways that's my 2 cents on why not every game implements it.
  - 7373737373 3y ago
    Not really relevant to this since it is ultimately a 2D game, but Prison Architect has a "hidden" 3d mode for some reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9MhCZSgc_0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9MhCZSgc_0
- nitwit005 3y ago
  Very, very, few people would notice the Minecraft NPCs having a semi-realistic day to day life. Noticing that an NPC has a work schedule requires that you stalk random NPCs all day. It works with the Sims, and similar games, because the game essentially forces you to watch them, and to be the stalker. It's so hard to get players to notice the AI is doing anything that one technique is to make NPCs yell their decisions at the player. That's why enemies exclaim things like "grenade!" or "flank him!" in FPS games. They are trying to force you to notice the AI is doing something.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    My favourite anecdote is what in F.E.A.R it's the grenade itself which triggers the "grenade!" sequence. Of course it's enemy who is shouting and taking cover but the action itself is triggered by the protagonists's grenade, not by NPC
- elsherbini 3y ago
  This playlist[0] from TangoTek shows him developing a mod to improve villagers in minecraft. Definitely nothing compared to DF, but still much more interesting than vanilla. Spoiler is that development is paused, not sure if anyone has continued to develop it. [0] four videos here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK6Vr9mcgjM&list=PL8t707flkqpcfebY-85ARb6gpmqTHKIGo&index=7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK6Vr9mcgjM&list=PL8t707flkq... and playing through the mod/ tweaking as he went here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8t707flkqpcAWeVeAUSh422-laR1ELuw https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8t707flkqpcAWeVeAUSh...
- delfinom 3y ago
  Because successful games aren't about copy and pasting as many pre-made assets and code together and shipping it. You can certainly do that nowadays for the Unreal and Unity engines but eh. They are all tailored experiences to form what is known as the game.
  - krapp 3y ago
    There's nothing wrong with using pre-made assets. Not every developer has a studio with in-house artists and designers.
- thesz 3y ago
  During my brief participation in game development I watched an attempt to make game out of needs and actions. This was done because state machines in previous game have failed in unpredictable ways, like dead bodies started to walk while continuing laying on their side and even went into fight. The end result? AI programmer resorted to state machines, because it was difficult to control character's behavior. For example, there were oscillating behaviors without any advancement on character's part. Team lead had to agree because there aas no budget to tune each character needs and actions to make game playable. I think this anecdote can explain why objects, needs and actions are seldom used.
cpeterso 3y ago
This video is a nice introduction to “Utility AI” systems and includes examples from games like The Sims and Total War. (The Sims section starts around time 6:50.) https://youtu.be/p3Jbp2cZg3Q https://youtu.be/p3Jbp2cZg3Q A utility system is basically a codification of Maslow’s hierarchy: the system continuously re-evaluates possible behaviors’ utility functions and then chooses the top-scoring behavior. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_system

7373737373 3y ago

Thank you! This makes me wonder why there is no open source implementation of/framework for such a mechanic (or why i haven't heard of one) yet - it seems to be the (potential) basis of many games - one other popular game using it is Rimworld. Also, why games like Minecraft have not long implemented such smart and interesting NPCs yet!

tialaramex 3y ago
Although Microsoft/ Mojang does still actively work on Minecraft, a large fraction of real input to Minecraft's evolution is driven by the independent (Java) modding community. Today vanilla Minecraft has bees, but for many years modded Minecraft had bees, and in fact it had so many bees that people would routinely "nope out" of bee stuff because "Oh MY GOD. No more fucking bees". Jaded Cat's original Agrarian Skies has custom bees, which I think were pink or purple - and within a year or two everybody was sick enough of bees that they didn't want even the normal ones. As with other creative communities there are some distinct threads, like some people are into very heavily survival focused, up-against-it packs, where e.g. gravity works properly, mobs understand the game rules and will climb up to get you, or set fires, they will upgrade their gear, etc. while people like me prefer ascend-to-godhood type gameplay where you quickly dispense with monsters and become untouchable not far into play. In the latter style there's not a desire for "smart and interesting NPCs", in fact it's often played alone or in small groups, intentionally. In the former style the NPCs are somewhat smart, but they're a threat so if you make them too clever they'll just always kill the players which isn't much fun after a while. I think NPCs with the type of independence of a Dwarf Fortress dwarf wouldn't be attractive to either of the sorts of player I mentioned, it may be that such people just don't play Minecraft. But it's also possible somebody has implemented it and I've never run into it. There are a lot of Minecraft mods. Curseforge lists literally thousands of them, there could be hundred like you describe and I wouldn't have noticed. Packs might typically have a few hundred of those thousands, I might play four or five packs per year, but often the same mods recur because they're so useful or well-liked, like Just Enough Items gets used a lot, so does Refined Storage, but some weird dwarf intelligence mod could easily go under the radar not because people don't like it but because they didn't know it existed. I reckon a lot of people had never really used Compact Machines for example until Compact Claustrophobia took off, and in that the machines are absolutely mandatory and you use them from the first minutes so you have to get very familiar with them.
- ehnto 3y ago
  Honestly it really was too much fuss about bees, in already very dense modpacks! I'm trying to get this space program off the ground so I can get back to my moonbase damnit. The reactor is melting down, I haven't got time for bees!
  - tialaramex 3y ago
    Most of the space mods can fuck off. So crashy and yet so bland. I did like the one where you can build arbitrary space stations, except its oxygen sealing mechanics are too sketchy so all I ever do is build an open air space station and spend as little time there as possible, wearing a space suit, until I'm immortal and don't need to breathe anyway. Advanced Rocketry maybe? Whereas I rather liked some bee stuff. Maybe not over and over again, but I played Valdan's Sky Bees a while back and I really enjoyed that again, with modern huge bees and so on.
chmod775 3y ago
>Thank you! This makes me wonder why there is no open source implementation of/framework for such a mechanic Most likely because actually implementing it is dead-simple, which is a major selling point of this technique. Short of adding it as a building block for non-coders in game engines such as Unreal, there is really no point in trying to prefab it. Most projects will be better served by just coding it in a way that is uniquely tailored to their needs and integrated with their game.
Pannoniae 3y ago
The short answer is that Mojang doesn't care about implementing actual, innovative features. The long answer is that the game is in a managed decline. The target audience is small children so anything not targeted to them doesn't get implemented. "Smart NPCs" isn't a feature like that, so there is zero chance of that being included into the game.
TheRoque 3y ago
Games experiences are carefully crafted. Minecraft is not a world simulator, or an RPG (I mean, without mods), if you added such features in the base game, it would change the experience dramatically. I'd say that the reason they didn't implement it yet, is simply because it's not the experience they want to give. Never underestimate how hard it is to create the game experience you want. There's a reason why a lot of NPC AI in videogames are dead simple: it's easy to implement, players easily interact with it, without being confused, it follows rules carefully crafted for the game experience, it's easy to debug and test etc. etc. Also, how many games like rimworld, DF exist in 3D ? That's right, none that I know of. Making this kind of AI in a free 3D space becomes a whole other story. I think it works well with 2D minimalistic games, because the player uses its imagination a lot. In 3D you can't really leverage this. Anyways that's my 2 cents on why not every game implements it.
- 7373737373 3y ago
  Not really relevant to this since it is ultimately a 2D game, but Prison Architect has a "hidden" 3d mode for some reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9MhCZSgc_0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9MhCZSgc_0
nitwit005 3y ago
Very, very, few people would notice the Minecraft NPCs having a semi-realistic day to day life. Noticing that an NPC has a work schedule requires that you stalk random NPCs all day. It works with the Sims, and similar games, because the game essentially forces you to watch them, and to be the stalker. It's so hard to get players to notice the AI is doing anything that one technique is to make NPCs yell their decisions at the player. That's why enemies exclaim things like "grenade!" or "flank him!" in FPS games. They are trying to force you to notice the AI is doing something.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  My favourite anecdote is what in F.E.A.R it's the grenade itself which triggers the "grenade!" sequence. Of course it's enemy who is shouting and taking cover but the action itself is triggered by the protagonists's grenade, not by NPC
elsherbini 3y ago
This playlist[0] from TangoTek shows him developing a mod to improve villagers in minecraft. Definitely nothing compared to DF, but still much more interesting than vanilla. Spoiler is that development is paused, not sure if anyone has continued to develop it. [0] four videos here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK6Vr9mcgjM&list=PL8t707flkqpcfebY-85ARb6gpmqTHKIGo&index=7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK6Vr9mcgjM&list=PL8t707flkq... and playing through the mod/ tweaking as he went here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8t707flkqpcAWeVeAUSh422-laR1ELuw https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8t707flkqpcAWeVeAUSh...
delfinom 3y ago
Because successful games aren't about copy and pasting as many pre-made assets and code together and shipping it. You can certainly do that nowadays for the Unreal and Unity engines but eh. They are all tailored experiences to form what is known as the game.
- krapp 3y ago
  There's nothing wrong with using pre-made assets. Not every developer has a studio with in-house artists and designers.
thesz 3y ago
During my brief participation in game development I watched an attempt to make game out of needs and actions. This was done because state machines in previous game have failed in unpredictable ways, like dead bodies started to walk while continuing laying on their side and even went into fight. The end result? AI programmer resorted to state machines, because it was difficult to control character's behavior. For example, there were oscillating behaviors without any advancement on character's part. Team lead had to agree because there aas no budget to tune each character needs and actions to make game playable. I think this anecdote can explain why objects, needs and actions are seldom used.

cpeterso 3y ago

This video is a nice introduction to “Utility AI” systems and includes examples from games like The Sims and Total War. (The Sims section starts around time 6:50.) https://youtu.be/p3Jbp2cZg3Q https://youtu.be/p3Jbp2cZg3Q A utility system is basically a codification of Maslow’s hierarchy: the system continuously re-evaluates possible behaviors’ utility functions and then chooses the top-scoring behavior. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_system